to want an apology from brother and mum?

[RedRep]

I had a falling out with my brother and mum last weekend and we haven’t spoken since then

My brother has a son from a one night stand 9 years ago. My nephew (H) and his mum (J) live 4 hours from us. My brother does not get on with J because he is pretty slack with contact which causes arguments between them. My brother has two other boys with his fiancée and they don’t have a lot of money so it’s hard for my brother to get over to see H, saying that he rarely FaceTimes or phones him which understandably annoys J and isn’t fair to H.

Me and DH went to visit H last month and had a wonderful time. My brother did not ask once how we got on or how H is doing (baring in mind he hasn’t seen him for 6 months or so). We tried to FaceTime my brother when we were with H but he didn’t answer or call us back. H was quite upset about this as he wanted to speak to his Dad.

My mum had a gathering last weekend and this was the first time i had seen my brother since I went to visit H. I tried to bring up the visit a few times but my brother changed the subject. He was also being quite cold towards me and I wasn’t really sure what I had done.

When my brother said he was going to leave soon, I asked if he wanted to FaceTime H and said I could call J’s phone so we could speak to him. My brother completely flew off the handle and started yelling that I shouldn’t be close with J, she’s a liar that makes stuff up to make him look bad and she’s a bad mother. I’ve never had a problem with J and have no reason to dislike her, so I said “I don’t want to get into all that” and he started yelling more until I walked away.

He then went home and began messaging me, telling me I was selfish for talking about H and that I was rubbing it in his and my other nephews faces that I had seen him recently and he was sick of me being self centred, that I had a chip on my shoulder and clearly had a problem with his lack of contact with H and that I think my brother does not love his son. I did not say ANY of this, and felt my brother was projecting his feelings of guilt on to me, whilst trying to tear me apart and insult me. I told him I have no issues with how often he sees H and that I had not said any of the things he was accusing me of. He went on to say I might not have said it, but he knew it was what I was thinking. I said he was acting crazy and I am sick of him flying off the handle and attacking me over his own perceptions and not actual reality. He went on to say we were done and he wanted no part of me in his life. He then blocked me on social media

I was still at my mothers whilst he was sending me these messages and I became very upset and was crying. My mum said she wasn’t going to take sides and refused to acknowledge that my brother was acting wrongly. I told her it wasn’t about picking sides but I felt let down that she refused to acknowledge he was in the wrong and that I hadn’t done anything. I also brought up the horrible things he had done to me growing up and how everyone walked on eggshells around him so as not to set him off, and asked how she couldn’t see that he had not grown out of that behaviour. I then left my mothers house in tears. My mother then phoned my brother and relayed everything I had said to her and offered comfort to my brother who was upset. My brother then messaged me again to say leave our mother alone and to stop bitching about him to her.

My brother has not contacted me since to apologise and my mother is not speaking to me either. I am incredibly upset over all of this and have been crying since Sunday because of it, but I feel they should apologise to me and not the other way round.

So, AIBU?

Yabvu to bring H up more than once (according to you) when your brother was changing the subject.
Mind your own business. H is your nephew and your relationship with him is separate to your brother's. Though you are understandably annoyed with your brother for being a useless arse as a father to him, it is up to him and J to sort out.

This sounds like how I haven’t really spoken to my sister for the last 7 years. You have my deepest sympathy.

In my case my “crime” was sending a Christmas card to her ex husband (the father of my niece and nephew). She told me to stop doing that (they divorced after she left him for someone else - I had cause to offer her some advice as a divorce lawyer which she found unpalatable and she told me I shouldn’t get involved, so I literally didn’t and took no sides). When I refused she cut me out of her life. The longer it has gone on the more toxic I realise her attempts at manipulation are.

You are being the best person you can be by maintaining contact with your poor nephew. If your brother’s reaction to that is to cut you out of his life then that’s his loss not yours.

I feel more sorry for your mother, you think she should automatically agree with you and you're metaphorically speaking taking your ball home! She's trying to be neutral in a spat between her children which is exactly what I would do too.

It absolutely was not the time or place to put your brother in that position. He'd made it clear that he was uncomfortable with you pushing the subject of the conversation, but you kept on interfering. I dare say your mum felt very awkward about it too. Then you went on a rant about him that criticised her as well, so that wouldn't have helped.

You need to step back. It's not your role to try to force your brother to do more. You're poking your nose in and interfering in their lives. You might think you have the best of intentions, but it's clearly not working and you're going to make things worse if you carry on. You're alos raising your nephew's homes and then dashing them.

...your nephew's HOPES

Ask your mom, if she says she doesn’t want to take sides, why is she not speaking to you?
Sounds like a massive chip full of regret on your brothers side, as you did make a point of pointing out his first son was a one night stand. you’re a part of his life, as your brother was to begin with... but maybe your brothers fiancée just wants him to not see his son anymore?? Your brother may be being pulled in two directions. I wouldn’t bother even mentioning his son to him anymore but keep seeing him, you’re his aunty.

If you want to have a relationship with H that is fine, but you need to keep your brother out of it. Have your own relationship with H. Your brother's contact with your son is up to him, not you.

Bless your nephew. You are being a good auntie. All you can do is reassure your nephew that his dad does love him but some people are just not good at showing it. Don't put either of them in situations which might disappoint.
If your nephew comes to stay with you then he is going to end up upset if db doesn't step up. If this is likely to happen can you take him away for a few days instead?

@MyOpinionIsValid

1. I’m not involved in his life. I don’t mention his lack of contact with H to him, or make any comments on his parenting skills. He discusses H when it suits him, but doesn’t like it if someone else brings up H when it’s not on his terms.

2. I spend MORE time with my other nephews than I do with H. They live 10 minutes away, H lives 4 hours away. I have a good relationship with my nephews and value them in my life.

3. it’s not irrelevant if he still behaves that way now

4. again, I didn’t ask my mother to take sides but she wouldn’t even acknowledge that my brother had done anything wrong, thus enabling his behaviour

I like my brother. In fact he gave me away at my wedding in December. I don’t like how he treats me sometimes and I don’t like how he loses his temper when things aren’t going exactly his way. You’re completely disgusting for referring to my much loved nephew as simply “a product of a one night stand”. He is a person with thoughts and feelings and deserves love. I love him and find your comments abhorrent. Clearly you don’t place a high value on family.

Why are you so over invested in the product of a ONS?

What a horrific way to describe a child!

I don't know why so many people are saying the mother is refusing to take sides or trying to be neutral. That is what she said but she is actually shit-stirring:

My mother then phoned my brother and relayed everything I had said to her and offered comfort to my brother who was upset.

I would go LC with your brother and semi LC with your mother if she can’t see what his rages do to you, and I accept you say this is not the first time it’s been ongoing.

Keep in contact with H yourself and don’t worry about what your brother does

My mum said she wasn’t going to take sides and refused to acknowledge that my brother was acting wrongly. I told her it wasn’t about picking sides but I felt let down that she refused to acknowledge he was in the wrong and that I hadn’t done anything.

That IS asking your mum to take sides!

At any rate, you were wrong to take your brother to task at a public gathering, even if it was just family and even if it was done quietly. It would have been much better to speak to him privately (as in just the two of you) and not criticize, but to offer to facilitate contact between him and his son. Are you in a position to offer rides, joint visits, or train fare? Even if you know he won't accept, I'd still offer, and keep offering. But in the end, his relationship with his son is up to him.

Of course, I think he's wrong not to live up to his responsibilities, but it's not your job to change things. The best you can do is serve as a 'conduit' between the two of them, letting him know that the door (you) is open for contact with his son.

I think it's wonderful that you are maintaining a relationship with his son, that will mean a lot to him as he gets older and understands that his dad's family loves and treasures him, even if his dad is a shit. But please, in future, don't say anything in front of the son about face timing or whatever. Far better let the mum know ahead of time, then excuse yourself, make the call and if you connect, go back to the room and say 'Surprise! Look who's on the phone!".

Just out of curiosity, do you think it's his fiancee who is hampering his relationship with his son? Is she jealous for her own DC over the other child? Was there an 'overlap' in the ONS and his relationship with fiancee?

y mum said she wasn’t going to take sides and refused to acknowledge that my brother was acting wrongly. I told her it wasn’t about picking sides but I felt let down that she refused to acknowledge he was in the wrong and that I hadn’t done anything. I also brought up the horrible things he had done to me growing up and how everyone walked on eggshells around him so as not to set him off,

Was this a thing during your childhood? Were you made to feel he was more important whilst you were scapegoated and ignored?

I think you're getting a rough time here too.

I think your brother is acting abominably and I don't think you are at all U to object to it. Your mum? Well, the way you portray it, she sounds U; but maybe she would see it as that you are both trying to make her take sides, and she's trying to avoid it. I think it's a bit U to demand an apology - not that you don't deserve one; just that there's little point in anyone apologizing unless they really mean it. In any case, I think that you should try to continue to be a good and loving aunt to H, and not worry too much about your brother's opinion of it.

my brother acts like he is interested in my nephew and is happy to talk about him on his own terms

The quintessential taking of credit whilst excluding him.

@MyOpinionIsValid what a horrible view you have. He's not simply the product of a one night stand, he is a son, a nephew, a grandson and likely a whole host of other wonderful things. I think OP is quite wonderful here. She's taking time to reach out to a little boy (and his mum) who probably feel quite rejected and giving him the extended family he rightly deserves.

Yanbu at all x

This is a really sad situation and the real loser here is H. Poor kid. Your brother seems to want to do things on his own terms and nobody, not even your mum, by the sounds of it, can tell him different.

I would give your brother a wide berth for the moment and see if he comes around. In the meantime keep up contact with your nephew and hopefully things will improve for him in the long term.

Maybe your mum will even see your brother for what he is but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I think your string
By all means visit your nephew
But you don’t need to be letting the whole know that you are.
It’s clearly a sensitive subject so why keep pouring oil on the flames?

You are not being unreasonable by visiting and spending time with your nephew. You are not being unreasonable for having an opinion on how little your bro visits etc

But you are being unreasonable for trying to keep bringing it up when he is trying to avoid the subject and bully him into FaceTiming his son at a gathering when he clearly didn’t want to.

You were meddling and their relationship is none of your business. You’re mum is in the right not wanting to take sides.

It's admirable that you have cultivated a relationship with H despite your DB being a pretty rubbish Dad but I do think YABU in the way you went about trying to facetime DB and then again at the party wanting to discuss H with your DB when he clearly doesn't want to discuss it with you

Fair enough to let your DB know you have visited H and do what you can to facilitate contact between the two of them but you also need to know when to back off and keep your nose out

Little update: i felt awful after I’d written this so I messaged my brother from my husbands phone to apologise for what happened on Sunday. He’s actually replied to say sorry to me for shouting at me and taking things out on me. He said I didn’t do anything wrong and he shouldn’t have treated me that way. We have agreed to draw a line under it and move forwards. I am not going to bring up H to him in the future as i don’t think he likes me visiting him or talking to him. So I’m just going to keep my relationship with him separate.
I feel like a weight has been lifted and I do appreciate my brother’s apology. Thanks for all your comments

Well that's about the best result you could have expected OP. So your brother is not as big a knob as we all thought earlier. He does have a conscience. Maybe there is hope for H yet but you are right to not get involved.

You sound like a shit stirrer regardless whether he is crap dad or not. It wasn’t the right place or time to push the FaceTime stuff on him in front of larger group of people and sounds like you were trying to publicly humiliate him. Don’t blame him for being pissed and yes you probably hit a nerve in that he knows he hasn’t been great. Just probably doesn’t want you pointing it out in front of everybody