Women who forget not everyone has access to money from men

[windygallows]

With 34.5% of the population aged over 16 in England ‘single and not cohabiting’ (2015 stats), it’s clear that a significant number of women in the UK, many parents, are single and having to fend for themselves/live on one income.

Yet I'm amazed at the number of women who forget that not every woman has access to a second income from a partner. In fact the privilege of having access to another’s (usually a man’s) income is often naturalized and many women are, or become, totally oblivious to this privilege.

For example just this last week I experienced:

• A woman at work going on and on about the importance of her life/work balance and suggesting I drop my hours to have similar. She works just 2 days/week and seems to forget that such a setup is an absolute privilege, thanks to a husband who works FT.

• Another woman I know who is on quite a low salary bragging about her 3 luxury holidays per year, again thanks to the income from an IT Director husband. She thought she'd give me travel tips in case I wanted to go to the same 5star holiday.

There are a million reasons why women might have to rely on men’s income but I don’t think I ABU in asking women to recognize that their lifestyle and having access to men’s money isn’t the NORM for up to 1/3 of women, who are having to get by on their own accord and lack the same privilege or financial flexibility.

I’m getting rid and cutting my losses now. I actually believed marriage was a commitment and you should stick with it! How stupid of me.

There are many things that you do stick with your partner through; changes in luck, changes in health, changes in family, changes in career. You've correctly identified though that addiction, like infidelity or aggression, isn't compatible with a healthy relationship. I hope you didn't waste too long with him @NotBeingRobbed, and I hope it won't be long before you've rebuilt the life you want.

NotBeingRobbed - doesn't that just highlight my point that it's mutual respect and tolerance that keeps a marriage going, not 50:50 finances? You had no good reasons to respect your dh and can now no longer tolerate him. That has everything to do with him being lazy and untrustworthy and far less to do with his career.

Trying to talk to my DH about cutting his hours to do childcare or housework would be a joke. He’d just tell me to up the cleaners hours or something

Tell me again how this set-up isn’t rooted in misogyny?

Gato - yes I totally accept your point. When I think of people I met at uni, it was pretty much a level playing field between men and women, in the sense that we all had a degree, I think the difference is quite simply that more men went into banking or finance related jobs than women. So by the time these couples get to 30 and are starting a family, it simply doesn’t make sense to compromise the higher income potential for the lower. For instance, if you earn £50k it’s a good salary yes, but if your DH makes or loses multiples of that over breakfast on his trading portfolio or whatever, then your salary kind of fades into insignificance in terms of overall family priorities. So you are making decisions in a different context. Coupled with this is the fact that many women do instinctively want to be around for their DC as much as possible. I know it’s not popular to say this on MN, but I think men and women do often have different motivations in this respect and find self-fulfilment in different ways. I totally realise that many couples are more 50/50 and consequently organise themselves accordingly, but equally there are those who prefer more defined roles and I think that’s ok, as long as there’s mutual respect.

The banks are casinos but their losses damage us all. Outside of the bubble we’ve not yet recovered from 2008.

Zaeem5 yes I can see that if you’re partnered with someone who is earning at a ridiculously level then even a good professional salary might begin to feel like a waste of time... which is a sad from the point of view that the 50k salary may well be the far more socially useful role.

It does seem the case that more men than women are driven towards careers like banking - though I wonder whether this will change as more girls and women move towards subject choices at uni and careers which were traditionally the preserve of men...

Would be good too if there was more of a shift towards men wanting to spend more time around their young children- but sadly the shockingly low take up of shared parental leave suggests that either they don’t - or perhaps the mothers don’t want to hand over any of the leave.

I think some of this seems very strange to us 50+ year olds who worked hard at keeping our careers going during the time when there was minimal maternity leave and no paternity rights at all ... just seems a bit of a backwards step to me.

Well DH got out of banking when he was 30 and he’s been self-employed since then, but I’m just talking of the kind of set-up that’s fairly typical round here.
I think you could call it “sexist” in that men and women’s lives tend to take in different trajectories once children come along and nowhere is this more evident than the income disparity. However, I wouldn’t say it’s misogynistic because ultimately, the women are not forced into this kind of set-up and nor do they feel lesser or disrespected for it.
But yes, of course, there are societal expectations; biological factors and, in some cases, cultural factors at play and I would never try and deny that!

Oh I agree... in fact I’ve known women who actively choose it and are more than happy to let their dh work more and earn more well beyond the days of small children - in some cases even after the kids have left home!

Thing is, it’s wise to keep an eye on the longer term, including pensions and retirements years, as well as being sensible about the ‘what ifs’ (illness, redundancy, recession, death of partner)
Of course no one wants the what ifs to rule their life but the disparity between women and men’s financial positions is important.
One huge (and often overlooked) advantage of a couple having more equal careers and earning is that if the ‘what ifs’ do occur, it’s a lot easier for the other partner to adjust because they’re already used to balancing earning with the domestic things

If there is that much money knocking around then you can afford to not work - if the marriage ends you will get half of it all anyway.

But there are knock-ons for society. This shores up the gender pay gap. If most high earners are men supported by SAHMs then it would explain why women in the City say don’t get the same bonuses or promotion opportunities because they are seen as “not needing it” although, of course, they no doubt need it just as much. There becomes a mind set.

And what if people do not fit in to the traditional working husband, SAHM mould? What it they are gay? Where are the opportunities for lesbians in this set-up? You might think it doesn’t affect you as a traditional heterosexual family but let me warn you - nobody can predict the sexuality of their children!

Yes well I fully admit, I’ve never experienced the demands of trying to balance a full-time job with childcare / school holidays, etc. I wouid have found that very difficult, I imagine. Similarly, DH has never had to curtail any working hours or business opportunities because he knows his kids are taken care of regardless. I do know 100% though, that even if we did ever separate, he would absolutely never withdraw money from his children. He’s totally committed to this for the long-term and this is what drives him tbh. He wants to make a “generational difference” for his kids - he always talks about this. This is the whole point for him. He has no concept of “my money” - to both of us, being a family means that everything is shared and there is far far more to this than money. It’s partly cultural, but also that’s his personality and what motivates him in life.

This is one of my bug bears, Whenever it has come up in my life, I usually say, "I've never needed a man to pay for the clothes on my back."

A lot of women choose to become totally dependent upon a man and have no problem with that. Personally, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Sicario- the thing is, if you had multiple children, your DH would be dependent on you. There was a period when we had 3 pre-schoolers. How much would that cost for a nanny? My DH never wanted to use nannies and he was adamant about that. He thinks it’s his role to facilitate his children to be with their mum - he doesn’t see it as doing me some kind of favour! I’ve been around for my kids every day if their lives - literally. No family help and we’ve employed nobody in this respect. He wouldn’t have had three children if he couldn’t support that. I wouldn’t have had three children if I’d had to use day centres or employ nannies because it would have been too hectic. I couldn’t do his job obviously, but equally, he would be the first to say he couldn’t have done my role for 16 years as he doesn’t have the emotional resilience or the patience. Yet he has a family and that’s what he wanted. This is just how we are. Everyone finds their own balance and I don’t think there’s any right or wrong. It’s just different personality types.

My children are also my main motivation. I would also like to make a generational difference. Sadly my ex didn’t see it that way at all. And at the moment the difference seems downward. As a single parent working difficult hours I have had to cut my hours in the office so I can be there for my kids some of the time, particularly the younger one. But I have managed to negotiate work from home too.

My parents are no longer alive and I wonder what they would think of me. Maybe not too approving about divorce but I didn’t feel I had an option. I hope they would at least be proud of how I’ve navigated my way through it in the end.

I guess @Zaeem5 is no different from some of the girls I was at uni with who only seemed to be there to get an eligible husband. I’m not saying that’s the reason you went, just that’s how it turned out. I wonder what happened to those women since because society has changed and some will have been left a bit high and dry.

Personally I don’t think I could have lived like that. I wanted to be part of the working life, to test myself and to achieve.

@Zaeem5 I do have multiple children. And don't get me wrong - having a SAHM is a great way to raise a family. I guess I have just seen too many compromised situations created by a financial hierarchy and a perceived power imbalance. Seeing women who put up with all kinds of shit because they fear they cannot stand on their own two feet. Seeing men who clearly don't respect their non-working wives.

@NotBeingRobbed - your parents would more likely be very proud that you are ensuring your children have a non-addict role model and are financially properly cared for. I doubt they would feel anything but pleased about the divorce in your situation.

Well there’s all kinds of permutation of relationships, whether you’re working or not. When I was at uni, I genuinely wasn’t thinking “husband”, let alone an eligible one! That’s the honest truth. We were all to young to have any concept of this kind of thing back then. I just met DH randomly in a bar when I was 24 and we were engaged within 6 months. He’s nearly 50 now so that’s half a lifetime ago! Neither of us knew how things would pan out, but life does pan out; sometimes it snowballs and you are confronted with particular circumstances so you navigate those in the most practical way, I guess.

Discussion is interesting but perhaps we’re in danger of dissecting things too much sometimes.

For me it was always quite simple: dh and I are equally intelligent and qualified, we both went to university, we both chose to have children, and we both live under the same roof- therefore cooking dinner, putting a wash on or booking a holiday are things which we both need doing and both benefit from. So it made sense to us to both do ‘both’ if that makes sense: each have a decent career (but not so ridiculously high flying that it requires a non working partner to facilitate it) and each being pretty hands on with the kids, cooking, domestic chores. Of course, that’s involved using childcare, and if you’re totally against that then I can see you’ve no option but for one partner to give up work.

To me, our approach just seemed logical because I’m just as capable of earning as my dh and he was always just as capable of doing things with the kids and in the home. Once maternity leave was up there was really no task, earning or in the home, which couldn’t be done by either of us.

@MRex but so many addictions are hidden and not too obvious even to extended family. I did waste years with this man, mainly because my family was very traditional, kept up appearances and regarded divorce as a failure. Now I am finally seeing divorce as actually liberating - even if I am having to buy my freedom. The kids are happier too.

But yes, I agree that some men could use the income disparity to their advantage and become abusive. However, I think if your DH is going to disrespect you, he’ll find a way to do this whether you’re working or not. If you’re that way inclined, you’re that way inclined.

Also, when I was working, it was with refugee families, those on the CP register, babies being born to herion-user mothers; teens in the remand system or in care. I had nearly a decade of this kind of work. No it wasn’t that highly-paid, but I’m a “people person”, I guess, and this is what motivates me. So it was completely natural for me to want to give input to my own family when the time came, having spent so many years focusing on other people’s children. I’ve never experienced the corporate ladder etc because I can’t get motivated by that kind of thing. That’s just me.

@zaeem5 it does sound like it's worked for you. But I just wonder how many of the SAHMs in your golden corner of west/south west London are afraid to leave because of the impact on living standards and maybe family pressure too? We can never be sure what goes on in private at all. Very rich people also seem more adept at hiding their assets when necessary.

I mean I was a bit afraid to pull the plug because of the financial hit to me and family disapproval. It’s not just immigrant communities! But in the end I just had to.

Well no, you can never tell what goes on behind closed doors - you’re not wrong there! To be honest, most people are British / Euro / British Asian, so I wouldn’t say cultural factors are Zyhst relevant to people we know in this area and I think by the time you’re in your 40s, you’re not so worried about “family expectations”’, more the emotional impact on your DC if there was a divorce. However, I think your parents would have been very proud of the fact you’ve managed to extricate yourself from your particular marriage and I can’t imagine anyone wouid disagree at all.

Also, I fully admit, it takes a hell of a lot of energy to deal with my DH day to day and I know some of my friends have similar - ish experiences. He is very restless and full on the whole time. He’s hyper; has extremely high expectations of himself, but also in terms of things he expects me to have covered and the way he expects other people to behave. He is never happy to be static or to just “be.” I’m used to it, I guess because it’s my normal, but I suspect many women would see it as far from normal!

Sorry @dodgeballchamp you seem slightly contradictory
even from a young age my natural assumption/vision for the future was me making my life what I wanted on my own, on my own terms. It wasn’t a decision or a conscious choice, that’s just how my mind works,
So from a young age you knew you would be living a singular life

But then
when I was in a live-in relationship with someone else picking up the cost of stuff I couldn’t afford

So it seems to read you only really chose this life once you split with your boyfriend ?

If someone else happens to join me they’ll have to do it on my terms
That is what most people do, you sound as if you think you are incredibly enlightened. I chose to date my ( now husband) and we did it on my terms, but then we realised we both had the same terms, we are like minded people, with the same values, goals and life plan.

If my husband ever decided he didn't want to work, (he works no harder now we have our son and i have become a SAHM than before ) we would put the wheels in motion to stop him working, I would go back to my career or start up myself in a consultancy capacity and he would be a SAHD.

Do you really think people don't have these discussions before hand, when you are a team, you do things for eachother and have eachothers back financially and most of all emotionally.

I do not think for one second that being alone but financial stable would make me happy, I'm not financial driven, if I have enough to be comfortable with a bit of security, great. But if you are driven by money and having lots of money but no one to share it with makes people happy, then I say congratulations to them, everyone is different.

I think it's when people lower themselves to personal insults of having no self respect, bring unfulfilled you already know they have lost and are just jealous, as that is no base for a debate.