‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

I don't understand why these days, a large number of people believe they are entitled to be given free money from other people's taxes, to pay for the choices they make, whether that's having multiple children or anything else

Agreed. We made the choice to bring 3 DC into the world, we don’t expect anyone else to support them and we cut our cloth accordingly. DH pays a shedload of tax and we don’t receive a bean from the state. Fine by us.

spiceupyourlife you read too much of the Daily Mail.

Most people struggling are actually struggling. They don't buy ipads and smoke 40 B&H a day.

(By earn more realistic wages I mean that there are a lot of ‘minimum wage’ jobs such as caring which really should be paid more. The government would be fantastic if they could step in and separate the truly ‘unskilled’ jobs from those which should earn better)

What if you have a contraception failure? Should you be forced to abort?

God. Society is therre to support the weakest members of society - the children. The welfare state is there for that reason. It's being eroded and eroded by the current government. It's just thoroughly depressing to read this shit on mumsnet too.

Society is responsible. If your parents had undiagnosed mental health problems, stretched themselves financially and were made redundant or made disabled through an accident, I would want you to have the ability to eat if you were a child with more than 1 sibling.

Mental health issues and disability can’t be equated with someone’s bad decisions with regard to pay day loans and credit cards

If you work an unskilled minimum wage job... you’re going to struggle. You can still have kids but you’ll have to limit the number and expect to give up luxuries like holidays and iPhones!

Do you have as much rage for companies that monopolise, manipulate market conditions, cap wages, and don't pay tax?

@AnnaNimmity

😂 Nope, I actually know several of the families I’ve just described! I’m actually under 30 so don’t read any newspapers! Just the guardian on my iPhone (which I pay for with my FT job 🙌🏻)

But as things currently stand a couple who are both working and are on minimum wage, by lots of PPs definitions, can’t really afford to have children at all. Do we really want a world where only the rich are allowed to reproduce?!

You realise this is about limiting support to 2 children right?

Why is this considered so inadequate?

I’m really torn. On the one hand, I think it’s right to discourage multiple children but on the other, it is not the fault of the children and they should not suffer (nor should the existing children that are affected).

I wonder if anyone advocating for this 2 child benefits cap would happily speak to a group of children, aged 4, 5, 6 etc, and hear them say they are hungry but the cupboards are empty at home, their knickers are too tight because there is no money for new ones just yet, their school shoes pinch, their school dinner is their only main meal and it's a slice of toast at home (again), their house is cold because their is no money for heating.

What would you say to them? 'tough shit, mummy should've kept her legs closed'?

Mental health issues and disability can’t be equated with someone’s bad decisions with regard to pay day loans and credit cards

This is a laughable comment, I don't even know how to respond to you.

I wonder if anyone advocating for this 2 child benefits cap would happily speak to a group of children, aged 4, 5, 6 etc, and hear them say they are hungry but the cupboards are empty at home, their knickers are too tight because there is no money for new ones just yet, their school shoes pinch, their school dinner is their only main meal and it's a slice of toast at home (again), their house is cold because their is no money for heating.

I wouldn’t like it at all.

But this is really an argument in favour of a benefit system with no end, isn’t it? Someone’s always going to suffer wherever you draw the line.

@Kokeshi123 Well said. It's difficult to accept (increased taxation and pension age) but it has to be done. I actually think that the state pension will be the next thing that will be eroded away.

@PatoPotato

Last I checked pay day loans, credit cards, and bankruptcy were still a thing. So if the parents are irresponsible, the children should be punished? Because that's what this does

Society is responsible. If your parents had undiagnosed mental health problems, stretched themselves financially...

You bracketed the two together, not me. Apparently you feel both groups are equally deserving.

I don’t want another one because I just don’t Celebelly Sorry, I’m not aiming it at anyone who wants one child, I’m aiming it at the poster who said she wouldn’t have another because it’s saving the planet so to speak.
And my point on the next child could be the ... is just to remind people they’re children and people, not just things. As for the you could make this argument for anything, that’s totally true! I just think people tend to comment on these threads in a very clinical way, but you can be clinical in everything ( technology will do a better job, let’s get rid of people, why should we let people into our country, elderly are costing us money, sick people are costing our health system) and then what has happened to the world? We’d be in a dystopian land from the movies!!!

I think the limit being set at the basic population replacement level makes sense. Everything above this is a luxury from the societal, environmental and economic point of view, and therefore has to be funded as a luxury.

This ^^ is probably the best way I've heard this expressed. Having two kids is fine (if you can afford to raise them), having more is a luxury most can't afford. The state shouldn't subsidise that.

@PatoPotato

As a wider issue yes.
But people are very quick an happy to take the blame off indervidual choice.
Of all my friends and peers, debt is absolutely crippling. I’m incredibly shocked how many of my friends are in tens of thousands of pounds of debt and they grumble on about how it’s ‘not fair’ and yes maybe they have been ‘irresponsibly’ leant to but I’m fed up of responsibility constantly being shifted.

A close friend of mine got herself in 30k of CC debt following uni. Holidays, shopping...frivolous etc. Then complained endlessly about how she couldn’t afford the repayments and then.... had a baby (planned)! Now she complains about how much she’s struggling and expects/ demands sympathy 🤔 why the hell isnt she being made to take responsibility?

Whilst people like me, who didn’t get to enjoy blowing 30k on fun stuff, save hard and make sensible thought out choices are told we’re being ‘snobby’ or ‘offensive’ by saying 🤔 ‘well that’s a little bit your own fault isn’t it?’

Whilst there are people out there who get into awful situations through no fault of their own (illness, injury, redundancy...etc) and 100% deserve support and dignity. MN REALLY likes to ignore that there are just as many (if not more) CF’s who make bad decisions and expect the tax payers to foot the bill

BarbarianMum

Please, please can people stop with the "circumstances can change" excuse? Yes of course circumstances can change - illness, death, disability, divorce, unemployment - these can happen to anybody at any time. That's not news, its always been the case. The solution is to plan conservatively when it comes to family size, stick at 1 or 2 if your budget won't allow you to pick up the slack for 6 if things go tits up. Prioritise health insurance before baby number 3. Double up on contraception if number 4 would mean you can't afford to work any more

I’m with you on this. One of my absolute prerequisites for getting pregnant was having made it far enough into my career that my salary meant if OH left or died I could support me and the child independently, and having achieved qualifications that meant even if I was made redundant now I’m in-demand enough to be able to get another job quickly or get by via private work. It’d be difficult, but doable. No way would I have had a child knowing that if my circumstances changed drastically I’d be up shit creek expecting the government to bail me out. I can’t understand these families who pop out 4, 5 kids, when both parents aren’t high earners. Why would you cut it so fine that your ability to feed and clothe your kids would be compromised if the worst should happen (which to thousands of people it does).

Having kids is a privilege to be taken seriously, not something everyone is entitled to just because they want it, it’s selfish in the extreme to have children you can’t provide for.

You bracketed the two together, not me. Apparently you feel both groups are equally deserving.

Can you really not see that if someone has undiagnosed mental health problems they may struggle with remaining financially responsible? Really?

Drowning in debt and mental health problems definitely happens, I assure you.

ust think people tend to comment on these threads in a very clinical way, but you can be clinical in everything ( technology will do a better job, let’s get rid of people, why should we let people into our country, elderly are costing us money, sick people are costing our health system) and then what has happened to the world? We’d be in a dystopian land from the movies!!!

Yes it’s almost like we’ve reproduced ourselves into a right pickle.

Why would you cut it so fine

I don't know, and I do think that it is about personality traits. I tend to be a bit of a pessimist/worrier and plan for the worst case scenario. Other people tend to take the attitude that "things will work out somehow and really bad things are unlikely to happen."

I don't know which attitude is better, but it definitely influences family planning decisions.

I don't know which attitude is better

Obviously when it comes to family planning, risk averse is always better. Always.

@PatoPotato

This is a laughable comment. I don't even know how to respond to you.

There is a thread in AIBU with a mother who has four kids and appears to be really struggling with day to day stuff (she is not on benefits, but she HAS to work full-time to keep the family afloat financially and this is clearly making life very hard for her). I look at threads like this and wonder what is going on in people's heads--why would anyone keep producing kids to the point that everyone is only "just about" managing and is so stressed? I would not have a third kid unless I had quite a bit of independent assets in my name.

Do we really want a world where only the rich are allowed to reproduce

The country is not saying only the rich can reproduce, it is saying don't have kids you can't afford and don't expect the state to keep you. Nobody needs more than 2 kids but if you want more, make sure you have the finances to look after them. Think about whether having more babies is a good idea and let the head rule the heart a bit more.

And having lots of kids is not very eco-friendly as has been discussed on recent threads on here.