‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

And I say, yes raise taxes on the rich. I'm happy to pay more if it means I live in a more equitable and fair society. I'm aghast at Boris plan to reduce tax on rich. (and I say that as a household that would only benefit from such a policy.)

Totally fine to let children eat out of bins and have holes in their shoes
These children are being failed by their parents, not by the benefit system. The existing benefit system already provides enough for children's basic needs to be met. There is an abundance of cheap food and clothes i n the UK, nearly all brits live within access to a supermarket, all British supermarkets sell basic products at knockdown prices (spaghetti, 20p, baked beans 30p, bread under 50 p a loaf, carrots, broccoli and bananas for literally pennies). WTF, should they give it away free? That still wouldn''t be enough for some people, would it?
Kids clothes - hand me downs, charity shops, primarks, supermarkets, Ebay. There's plenty of sources for cheap clothes and shoes.
Having said that, I do think the sanctioning system and the 5 week system for UC needs to be scrapped, but the benefit system as it stands should be adequate if parents actually prioritise their children's well being.

I could understand people moaning if benefits had been stopped for all children but, for goodness sake, it's still payable for 2. Why do people want or need more than that?

Do people walk around with their eyes closed and their brains disengaged? Not only is the planet overpopulated but the UK is way way overpopulated.

There are far too many people in this small country. There is not enough housing, not enough work, the schools can't cope, the NHS can't cope, the railways can't cope. The roads certainly can't cope with the amount of traffic but it will only get worse. Just about every journey we do by car now takes at least half an hour longer but usually more like 1 to 2 hours. This is just because of the amount of traffic on the roads.

We should maybe be rewarding people for not having children or just having one instead of paying people who have more.

I really worry about my neices' and nephews' futures not just with regard to the above but also with likely food and water shortages. The only consolation is that we don't have our own children to worry about.

🤔 I actually would go as far as to say that middle class kids are often actively disadvantaged throughout the uni process. It’s a VERY well known fact within uni’s that the WORST off students aren’t those from low income families (who all qualify for full maintenance loans AND bursary’s) but the kids from families who earn ‘just’ over the threshold but have other children at home and financial commitments!

Example- Jason’s parents earn 51K per year with 3 younger children at home and a mortgage - They don’t get any benefit/help and are just about comfortable. Jason is entitled to approx 3.5k (outside London) of maintenance loan for the year on the basis that his parents should pay the rest 🤔 (5.5k)

Anna’s parents earn 15k per year (which topped up by benefit comes to closer to 23k (this is based on my own experience) they have a younger child at home and low rent as this is contributed to my housing allowance!
Anna is entitled to FULL maintenance loan AND bursary totalling approx 9k per year (outside London).

So you have two teens, both entering uni, one with approx 9k per year to live on and one with 3.5k (plus whatever his parents can afford to give him).

No parent will prioritise paying a student lease over their own mortgage nor should they have to! But nobody complains about this priveldge. I was FAR better off at uni than MANY of my ‘middle class’ friends but yet we hear constantly about how ‘inaccessible’ uni is for low income kids 🤔

Why would you have THREE kids if you’re poor? How would you provide for them? I don’t know many people who are not “poor” and couldn’t have 3 kids because of the expense!

Why would anyone make illogical choices?

Why did Donald Trump file bankruptcy 4 times?

Why do people climb mountains then need rescue teams to save them?

Why do people go to Vegas then proceed to lose their house?

I would never take a pay day loan, but people do it! It's illogical! They charge like what 1000% interest?? People get their telly from Bright house, not understanding the true cost?

I mean if you go back in a time machine, most people would probably find the house prices we put up with as lunacy!

Anyways, getting to the point now. No matter what we do, those large families WILL exist. They existed in times when there was no safety net at all. History has shown us that. It's ridiculous to think that people will start making logical decisions. They won't.

The bad thing about all of this is that children will suffer and it's not necessary. We have the wealth as a country we just need to fix the tax system so companies cannot take their profit offshore and proceed to screw us.

That’s a good point Spiceupyourlife. I was from a single parent on minimum wage household when I went to uni, and as a result I was entitled to every loan and bursary going. I still had to work part time (around 20 hours per week) on top to support myself but I was in a much better position than housemates whose parents earned over the threshold but weren’t wealthy enough to contribute the kind of cash I was receiving in support.

oh @MrsFrisbymouse thank you! This thread has amazed and depressed me.

Spiced really? middle class children are really disadvantaged???. What are you talking about?! Working class children don't even get to university in the first place. Their expectations, their treatment from the moment they are born etc mean they lose out from day one. It's absolutely right to do everything you can to improve social mobility. That really doesn't mean giving money to entrepreneurs to make more money.

I believe that children are the responsibility of society, not just the parent

Can’t enter this mindset at all. If every single parent gave up work tomorrow and expected ‘society’ - everyone else but themselves - to take care of their kids, how do you think that would pan out? Seriously?

No one cares about your children as much as you do. They may be willing to do the basics, but do you honestly think people will work just as hard for a stranger’s child as they will their own? Come off it.

@Spiceupyourlife

Yes you struggled and you struggled hard so fuck everyone else because where was your help. You might wana consider that the cost of living now is really high. And the living wage hasn't risen. You might want to consider that it's just luck of the dice that opportunties presented the self to you. It used to be far easier to work your way up the ladder but now those at the top aren't going to make it easy for us lower earners are they. It would mean sharing the wealth. So now the ladder is booted down at every opportunity.

As for what you say about rich kids and private schools wouldn't it be fair if all children were entitled to the same level of education. So everyone would be suitable for the best jobs. This is just another tactic to keep the working class down. In a fair society everyone would be educated to the same standard of education despite how much mummy and daddy can pay for it.

I really believe you have lost your roots and I feel sad for you. As someone who has struggled why would you not have the same passion as other posters on here desperately not wanting for someone else to go through that same struggle.

We are not talking about fucking Burdens here. We are talking about little lives. If you do not invest in young people and show them their worth then what the fuck do you think happens to them. Its a big endless cycle of children not knowing their worth-no opportunties-no money-parents struggling-what's the point? Those people are more likely to cheat the system because they believe no one gives a crap about them.

Communism is a dirty word and it has never been executed right. Because there are always dictators. But aren't the ideals beautiful. That we could live in a world were the wealth is shared, were everyone can prosper.

When you are dead you cannot take your money with you. No matter what we all Rot together. You might just have a gold plated coffin

The bad thing about all of this is that children will suffer and it's not necessary

No, absolutely not necessary if parents make good and responsible decisions.

Working class children don't even get to university in the first place. Their expectations, their treatment from the moment they are born etc mean they lose out from day one.

Erm... you should probably tell that to my friends and I, the majority of us went to uni from very working class backgrounds. I was born in a council house on an estate, nobody had ever been to uni in my family etc. and I ended up with an undergrad, a MA, and a postgrad diploma in a profession. My partner was the first generation in his family, second generation immigrants, to go to uni and managed to become a doctor with parents who worked in a corner shop. None of my classmates at secondary school were middle class or above and yet most did go to university. Clearly you have no idea and don’t actually know anyone who’s working class to spout such nonsense. Spiced is correct, I lived it.

No one cares about your children as much as you do.

Really, then why do social services exist? I would say some strangers actually care more about the well-being of some children then the children's own parents.

So presumably all the people who think child tax credits should have no cap because even if parents are irresponsible the money is for the children, agree that child benefit should be restored to those earning over £50k because the benefit money is for the children afterall and that includes the children of "higher" earners? Or are only some parents expected to be penalised for being responsible?

These threads are absolute magnets for the entitled grabby irresponsible people you’re talking about. They’re not going to agree with you because that would be admiring that sticking their hands out to the state rather than taking responsibility is wrong! And they’re ALWAYS right

I don't know how to copy and paste that from a previous message. But What on earth are you on about?!

I really don't agree with you . I earn in the top 5% in the country. I Have never claimed a benefit in my life. (so far, I've been fortunate I know that). But I really don't agree with you. I feel sorry for you that you can think that everyone is in it for themselves. Give some credit to most of us.

I believe that children are the responsibility of society, not just the parent
I completly agree with this, which is why I think think there comes a point where you bypass the parents and directly target the child in need.

I think there is a discussion to be had pinkcarrots about whether the universal child benefit is restored or not. You lot will all raise you hands in shock, and start going on about people who used it to buy ipads or something.

I don't know enough about that area, to comment. In principle i agree with the princpal that it should be universal.

I have read enough to know that the austerity measures and the new social security benefits that the conservatives have brought in, have massively prejudiced women. I also know that we didn't have any where near the amount of child poverty we have now in 2013 before any of these changes were introduced.

So presumably all the people who think child tax credits should have no cap because even if parents are irresponsible the money is for the children, agree that child benefit should be restored to those earning over £50k because the benefit money is for the children afterall and that includes the children of "higher" earners?

Actually I do think that, yes. We still get child benefit and don’t strictly need it. I’m sure there are people who earn more than us and do need it, depending on their circumstances. I think it’s disgraceful that a couple can early a penny off £100k and get it and a single parent on £50k can’t

The easiest and best way to do it is to give child benefit to every single child. Totally agree. Why wouldn’t I, given that my concern is has been about the welfare of kids?

@ThisMustBeMyDream

Thank you - someone speaking some sense and with a shred of empathy!

Sometimes people's circumstances change, illness, accident, divorce, bereavement. We can all wait until we can afford children but life can change in the blink of an eye.
Even when people are on tax credits, they still struggle with very low incomes.
I suppose some people would just like to see children abandoned by the side of the road like some developing countries.

@ThistleTits the government is not saying nobody is allowed children. They are saying if you want more than two you need to find it.

Why isn't two children enough for those who can't support the third?

@ChilliAndRiceIsVeryNice

EXACTLY Wish people would actually listen to the experiences of ‘working class teens’ going to uni. I was constantly being told how poor and disadvantaged I was when Uni was actually a breeze!
I remember being really shocked at how financially easy life became at uni compared to living at home! My family really struggled but alone with 9k a year and a good PT job I was fine!

But lucky us that @AnnaNimmity is here to tell us that we didn’t even go to uni! Sorry clearly YOU understand ‘low income going to uni’ FAR better than Chilli and I who have actually lived it 🤔😂

@Wereeaglesdare I understand what you’re saying - but for context I’m in my mid twenties 🤔 so ‘it’s so hard to do it now’ doesn’t really apply! I did it now! In this economy - over the last 5 years!

I also find it very frustrating the whole ‘how can you not want to help the poor’ patronising attitude! A couple of years ago I WAS THE POOR! We’ve just managed to buy a house but are currently setting ourselves up financially to have our own children (afford maternity leave) and establish ourselves and our own lives (we’re not a couple in our 60’s sitting on crazy assets complaining about ‘these entitled kids’ - we’re a young couple who are new to having (long awaited and worked for) high wages and are trying to forge our own lives above the breadline - so I have absoloutley NO patience for being told I should
A- feel bad over the income we now have
Or
B- give MORE to people who are already being supported to a basic level!

NO

Child tax credits have gone completely now it’s all universal credit which you can only get if you are unemployed so that’s having a bigger impact on family life

I've not got a lot of money by any means but we budget everything so we can afford children. We wouldn't of started a family without having full time employment and a mortgage as we didn't want to start off the wrong way. I understand circumstances can change which can put people on benefits but don't start a family dependent on the money from others.

@bubblegumunicorn you don't have to be unemployed for universal credit.

Child tax credits have gone completely now it’s all universal credit which you can only get if you are unemployed so that’s having a bigger impact on family life
That’s incorrect.