Adoption with parental consent

[FakeUsername]

I hope to phrase this respectfully, and would be grateful for anyone with more insight and opposing views- I am not an expert. I am asking questions. To be clear, I certainly do not disagree with the idea of adoption in the case of relinquished children, or those with no one to care for them. Also I think adopters themselves are usually resilient people who do amazing jobs (often managing a lot of fall out from a poorly run system, for example adoption following inadequate support of a child over a long period). I’m also not into the weird stuff online about financial incentives for adoptions etc and don’t wish to echo individuals who say this.

I’m concerned that the process is sometimes flawed. That a secret court can split families without evidence that would be taken to a criminal court. That particularly emotional abuse cases have potential to be unsound. Or new evidence comes to light in an irreversible process. Is the risk acceptable, that children are removed without warrant for the sake of others. There could be a clause for maybe categories of physical abuse and criminal convictions of neglect or assault and therefore losing parental rights (eg a criminal conviction of abuse)- but most cases I believe don’t reach this. I’m not sure we are placing enough value in family structure and identity. Or maybe working with families to either adequately support them, or work towards a point of accepting the best route forward is adoption. Does the system have enough checks, and when does it become too secretive to be held to account.

Many families may either react poorly to professionals or have difficulty acting in court in a way that reflects parenting. The current system has few checks or recourse for when it goes wrong for families. Some families can present themselves in a way to the system that shields parents, others get lost in it. For example some women may speak culturally of events in a way seen as ‘minimising’ events, whereas another culturally speaks very openly to professionals. Both carry out the same actions.

I’d also question the links of poverty, budget cuts and adoption from families below the poverty line. If society is either directed towards a bias or families are facing additional struggles that break up units. That underfunded care systems can lead to more unsafe conclusions, strings of locum SW turning over in some departments creating holes in chronology and inconsistencies. We need to be very very very robust if we are to separate a family. Not a bitty system that can be unpredictable and act differently for the same issues.

Do we do enough to support care leavers, is it a cycle that can be broken?

Do we have higher numbers/ different practices from other countries and do we need to learn? Do we need to look at ourselves, track children better, listen to more stories? Are we too often placing children but not talking about disruptions or outcomes?

To me it seems a huge huge deal to separate a family forever (or childhood) and bar contact. A closed adoption, without contact, for every single case seems very difficultly. Disruption, where an adoption ends, is also an issue. If we have a fixed adoption that then breaks down due to a faulty system placing the family in an impossible situation the impact on children is HUGE.

Is there some element of a perception of punishing parents for actions? Do we ever lose focus on the child’s rights and future in the case ion how a mother may present and judgements made?

I won’t write an essay, but I’m happy to expand. As I said these are not views of an expert, if I cause offence I apologise, I hope for respectful dialogue (or being ignored which is also fine!). For transparency I have not had a child in care, these views mainly come from talking to a close friend who had a disrupted adoption/ lots of care places and returned to a (rather dysfunctional) mother and siblings as an adult for a relationship that is messy but carried on. Also from working with children in many stages in care. Are there many cases where contact with family and care would be appropriate?.

Lastly- if you are an adoptee or adopter I hope you do not take questioning a system personally . I do not question an adoptive family as less valid in anyway, I am asking about the UK process.

Suitable not unsuitable obviously.

And btw im not saying that every single parent needs the benefit of the doubt because alot are white.

What does this even mean? Are you saying they need the benefit of the doubt because they’re white or in spite of being white?

And of course there is an element of secrecy to the family courts, this is necessary “so as to keep it private.* It’s kept private not to cover up wrongdoings (even though yes, in some cases that will be an unfortunate side effect), but to protect the child’s privacy.

@zweifler1 Yes I’ve kept my tongue for years, but my patience has run out here. Although I’m not challenging the anti-SS narrative, so much as the carefully filtered narrative of ‘I’m a BM paragon of virtue and I have every right to have (in)direct contact with my child despite them being adopted because they’re still mine and the adopted parents and SS are maliciously preventing me from having this, even though indirect contact with my child is obviously in their best interests and what they want despite evidence to the contrary.”

Some people get validation from an online persona. Not a problem, until their argument shows they fundamentally don’t understand that the adoption process is painstakingly geared around the best interests of the child. Which means, sorry, that the birth parents’ wishes and interests come second.

No one takes into account the extended family.

EVERYONE TAKES INTO ACCOUNT EXTENDED FAMILY

kincare is encouraged and preferred. Guess what though? Sometimes abusive and neglectful parents come from abusive and neglectful extended families. Sometimes family takes the side of an abuser. Sometimes family have had the same problems. And sometimes family make it clear that they aren't going to comply with the order and will just give the child back once the social worker goes home.

You sound like you are just making things up. And I have no idea what the racial implication of your statement is.

MtotheG

I grew up in a pretty poor neighborhood that was very anti SS. There was lots of police SS contact. I don't know of one person whose contact with SS wasn't warranted. Every single parent had some sob story that was complete lies and if anything SS were overly lenient with parents.

People don't get it. They think that "bad" parents are going to sound like Jack the Ripper. Just because someone can spin a yarn on mumsnet doesn't mean they are in the right. And they are only perfecting these fairy stories on mumsnet because in real life they'd be heavily judged QUITE RIGHTLY for losing custody of their children to the state.

And sometimes family members would make brilliant carers BUT for their practical circumstances, eg they already have children/a small house/a demanding job/a disability/an illness and don’t have the physical room or time and emotional bandwidth to take on a child who needs a lot of intensive nurturing. You see these situations on threads here for time to time and it is heartbreaking; decent people really don’t want a child in their family going into care but sometimes they need to prioritise their own children or they know they just can’t physically give the child what they need and deserve.

Auto correct. I meant shite** not white

Who's to say that someone won't change in a year's time? 6 months to sort yourself out is ridiculous.

I’d love to know where these children are who are permanently removed from parents with 6 months of a concern being raised. The investigation process alone can take 2/3 months, if the child is then placed on the child protection register there’s a plan to work with the family, usually registration is reviewed every 3 months so that’s 6 months to begin with. A compulsory supervision order takes another 6/8 weeks by the time reports are received and a hearing arranged and most kids then have a period in care before permanency planning - I can’t think of a child freed for adoption in less than 18 months, unless there have been previous siblings permanently accommodated and even then there’s a period of time spent trying to support the birth mum to parent her child. And let’s face it, birth mum knows there’s an issue because previous children have been removed so she has had plenty of time to sort herself out.

Parents have considerably longer than 6 months to sort things out and demonstrate they can parent properly, by the time children are adopted every avenue will have been exhausted and the child in desperate need of stability.

It's my opinion anyway that a child should make their own choice rather than be kept away until they are 16. People change and it would mess a child up more not having the opportunity when they want it. Each to their own opinion but my point is that the LA lie an awful lot.

@jellycatspyjamas you don't have to look far to know that's wrong, many first time mum's in my town can say differently to your time scales. Care proceedings last 6 months and adoption gets agreed at the final hearing, have you never heard of an emergency hearing?

Really? At what age? Should my 8 year old be allowed to choose to have contact with a birth parent from whom she was removed for her own protection? Or maybe when she’s 12, going through puberty and transitioning to high school? Or perhaps in the middle of her exams, yep that would be a great time to reintroduce the chaos of her birth family.

Children have a huge sense of loyalty to their families, even the most chaotic, abusive parents engender love and loyalty in their children - it’s not fair to expect children to know the long term implications of contact with birth families, or to expect them to be able to cope with the level of confusion ongoing contact causes. We let children have incremental levels of choice depending on their capacity to cope with the consequences of those choices, not to moderate those choices in an age appropriate way is abusive.

As far as local authorities lying, it’s entirely possible however the burden of evidence required to remove a child temporarily, much less permanently is pretty high so you’re talking about social work, education, health, police, third sector agencies all telling the same lie to a extent as to convince a Sheriff that removal is in the best interests of the child. What I do know is that parents rarely present the true picture of a child’s life with them, usually circumstances are significantly worse than workers ever hear about.

Children need to know where they came from, their background and identity, they don’t need to revisit it unnecessarily.

Care proceedings last 6 months and adoption gets agreed at the final hearing, have you never heard of an emergency hearing?

Emergency hearings can only grant a Child Protection Order, which allows the short term removal of a child to a place of safety (eg up to 5 days), a permanence order with authority to adopt can’t be granted at an emergency hearing. In fairness I’m in Scotland where systems are a bit different but I’d love to find all these 6 month old babies who are freed for adoption.

@Savannah what age do you think a child would be capable of making that decision ? With the damage already done to them by their disrupted start in life and lacking the emotional maturity to understand that loving a child is not enough. Children need to be the absolute priority of their parents and have their physical and emotional needs met on a consistent basis. Sadly that is beyond some families which is why these children are in care in the first place.
And then what if the child did have that choice to make ? Do you dissolve adoptions and disrupt a child again ?
Adoptor are people too you know. Parents who love their adopted children and want to give them the best life they can. Should they be expected to do that and then just walk away when it suits the child and / or birth family.
There is no perfect system of course. We all know that. And yes no doubt mistakes are made but at the centre of it all we should keep the child's need for stability and a long term family.
As I said previously I am a foster carer and adoptor of many years standing and I have never yet heard a birth parent admit to doing anything wrong and being able to face the truth about why their child was removed.
That is hardly surprising and I remain very sad for parents who truly love their children but cannot provide what they need . But that is why we need a judicial system that looks at the decision impartially and doesn't depend on random social workers or anyone else to decide.

It's my opinion anyway that a child should make their own choice rather than be kept away until they are 16. People change and it would mess a child up more not having the opportunity when they want it. Each to their own opinion but my point is that the LA lie an awful lot.

This might be your opinion but it is a very selfish opinion.

My son's birth mum is lovely. She is not emotionally stable enough to be raising him. We have a very friendly letterbox contact every year (exchanging not only letters but also photos, books, gifts - both ways, not just her to him but from us to her). There is not a hope in hell that I would allow him to meet her whilst he is a child, regardless of what he wants. Surely you are aware that children dont always make the best decisions? So much emotional damage can be done by meeting birth parents, I'm not going to subject him to it until he is mature enough to understand the implications.

@jellycatspyjamas imagine having a emergency hearing and them getting a CPO your baby is a few weeks old. Proceedings have to be over by 6 months after the first hearing. Your baby is then put up for adoption, it's your first child, you've and minimum contact. How do you help a parent prove themselves when they are not getting the chance to spend enough time with their baby to actually prove themselves? SW here do the bare minimum, sometimes not even that. Same with FSW. How does a parent better their parenting skills when there is no support to help them to begin with? It's just a vicious cycle. There would be less shitty people if money was put into supporting them rather than paying court fees etc. I get adoptive parents form an emotional connection. And I believe in adoption if the parents want that for their child, but if a parent is fighting tooth and nail and doesn't want them to be adopted I personally think it's wrong. Put the child in foster care for that few months while the family get the support they need to change. Here where i am, the threshold doesn't need to be that high to have your baby taken. I could never imagine fostering a child and them wanting so bad to see their natural family and saying no, I just couldn't do it. Id support them as much as i could. My mum kept my dad away from me for years because she thought he was a shitty person. I met him 2 days after i started secondary school. You know what? I found out myself. He never let me down and despite what people said. He's a great dad. Im glad i had the opportunity to make my own mind up rather than people making it up for me. Again. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm kinda bored of going in circles now. My point was only to say that LA lie through the teeth so until your the side of the birth parent. You can't actually fully know what it's like, and that i don't believe in forced adoption. that's it.

Going to say bye now

Here where i am, the threshold doesn't need to be that high to have your baby taken.

I’m sorry, my assumption was that you are in the UK, I can’t comment on what happens elsewhere.

@jellycatspyjamas I am in the UK, just a deprived part. The LA budget is that stretched that there is no support for anyone, luckily unlike other parents me and my partner have our daughter at the centre of our lives and we proved that we wasn't the scum that the SW wanted to portray us as. They assume this because again, they haven't got the resources to put the time and effort into getting to know us etc because they have many other family's they work with, so they kinda just do their own thing, I didn't want to argue. I just wanted to voice my opinion. SW where I live are not like they are suppose to be, they dont do their jobs and you're screwed if you don't get along with them because you can't request a new one because there simply aren't any. It's stupid really.

Savannah for you.

Thank you @HateIsNotGood

Have to lol at the ‘white’ for ‘shite’ typo

But on a serious note-

“And I believe in adoption if the parents want that for their child, but if a parent is fighting tooth and nail and doesn't want them to be adopted I personally think it's wrong.”

This is breathtakingly simplistic and naive. Lots of birth parents may fight the system, but that doesn’t mean they’re doing all they can to get the child. They’re fighting because they feel wronged, because they don’t think they’ve done anything wrong, or because they’re more bothered about having power and control and “winning”. If they’d genuinely not wanted to have their child taken, they would have complied and jumped through hoops to get their child back. Those that shout the loudest aren’t t necessarily the ones who care the most about their child. Often they’re just ones who care the most about being heard and being seen as ‘right’.

@MtotheG

Most embarrassing typo yet lmao

But your right, I'm far from saying all the parents care, but there are alot that genuinely do care about the child and no matter how many hoops they jump through, the LA don't give a shit and still want to portray them as monsters. Not all, but a good few. The shite parents who put on a show make it more difficult for the genuine ones. I think the whole system needs reforming.

I'm an adoptee and adoptive a parent. My birth mom had three of us and all of us were removed. I was raised separately from my siblings. My birth mom never changed. she only contacts me now for money. She was given loads of chances and is still to this day always the victim. Always.
My sister has had many many run ins with social services and her kids. Initially her oldest was removed at birth due to drug addiction. They come in and get involved, my sister gets her stuff together and then there is no more check ins until something massive happens. Yes, birth parents get a lot of chances at the expense of the children.

Oh and my birth mom did not want to consent to our adoptions. She tells people we were raised in the country with friends.

@Rachelle11 here alot of parents don't get multiple chances. I've not said all parents either. But some can change. But by then it's too late. That isn't fair.

Not fair to whom? Seems you’d argument is more birth parent-led than child-led. Of course it’s preferable a child stays with their BF but what’s even more preferable is that a child gets the maximum amount of stable, consistent, attentive love and care and safeguarding. Risks can’t be taken with that.

Some DV abusers do change. Should their partners stay with them though in the hope that happens?

Its both led. Child and parent. It's not fair on the child being lied to. Some children don't find out till they are old enough that they are adopted. Imagine how that must feel. And what about the parents who are blatantly being lied about? How is any of it fair? I've openly admitted that there are some shitty parents who don't deserve children. But the ones who get lied about. Imagine the impact on them and their children? Break up a family and cause unnecessary damage when the LA could of just helped them in the first place. Over here it's really easy for you child to be put up for adoption, maybe make it a little harder and focus on helping families instead