Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Adoption with parental consent

158 replies

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 09:42

I hope to phrase this respectfully, and would be grateful for anyone with more insight and opposing views- I am not an expert. I am asking questions. To be clear, I certainly do not disagree with the idea of adoption in the case of relinquished children, or those with no one to care for them. Also I think adopters themselves are usually resilient people who do amazing jobs (often managing a lot of fall out from a poorly run system, for example adoption following inadequate support of a child over a long period). I’m also not into the weird stuff online about financial incentives for adoptions etc and don’t wish to echo individuals who say this.

I’m concerned that the process is sometimes flawed. That a secret court can split families without evidence that would be taken to a criminal court. That particularly emotional abuse cases have potential to be unsound. Or new evidence comes to light in an irreversible process. Is the risk acceptable, that children are removed without warrant for the sake of others. There could be a clause for maybe categories of physical abuse and criminal convictions of neglect or assault and therefore losing parental rights (eg a criminal conviction of abuse)- but most cases I believe don’t reach this. I’m not sure we are placing enough value in family structure and identity. Or maybe working with families to either adequately support them, or work towards a point of accepting the best route forward is adoption. Does the system have enough checks, and when does it become too secretive to be held to account.

Many families may either react poorly to professionals or have difficulty acting in court in a way that reflects parenting. The current system has few checks or recourse for when it goes wrong for families. Some families can present themselves in a way to the system that shields parents, others get lost in it. For example some women may speak culturally of events in a way seen as ‘minimising’ events, whereas another culturally speaks very openly to professionals. Both carry out the same actions.

I’d also question the links of poverty, budget cuts and adoption from families below the poverty line. If society is either directed towards a bias or families are facing additional struggles that break up units. That underfunded care systems can lead to more unsafe conclusions, strings of locum SW turning over in some departments creating holes in chronology and inconsistencies. We need to be very very very robust if we are to separate a family. Not a bitty system that can be unpredictable and act differently for the same issues.

Do we do enough to support care leavers, is it a cycle that can be broken?

Do we have higher numbers/ different practices from other countries and do we need to learn? Do we need to look at ourselves, track children better, listen to more stories? Are we too often placing children but not talking about disruptions or outcomes?

To me it seems a huge huge deal to separate a family forever (or childhood) and bar contact. A closed adoption, without contact, for every single case seems very difficultly. Disruption, where an adoption ends, is also an issue. If we have a fixed adoption that then breaks down due to a faulty system placing the family in an impossible situation the impact on children is HUGE.

Is there some element of a perception of punishing parents for actions? Do we ever lose focus on the child’s rights and future in the case ion how a mother may present and judgements made?

I won’t write an essay, but I’m happy to expand. As I said these are not views of an expert, if I cause offence I apologise, I hope for respectful dialogue (or being ignored which is also fine!). For transparency I have not had a child in care, these views mainly come from talking to a close friend who had a disrupted adoption/ lots of care places and returned to a (rather dysfunctional) mother and siblings as an adult for a relationship that is messy but carried on. Also from working with children in many stages in care. Are there many cases where contact with family and care would be appropriate?.

Lastly- if you are an adoptee or adopter I hope you do not take questioning a system personally . I do not question an adoptive family as less valid in anyway, I am asking about the UK process.

OP posts:
zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 17:26

oh and sorry you didn't get my earlier point.

it's just that parents identify with abusive parents over children in the same way that men identify with abusive men over women. Parents come on and insist that SS stole their child for no reason and it's believed wholesale yet if a man came on and argued his ex had a restraining order against him or was getting legal aid due to abuse (none of which require criminal conviction) people wouldn't believe a word he said.

You believe the victim, not the abuser.
I believe children. Not parent/abusers.

jellycatspyjamas · 21/06/2019 17:33

Are we, I’m talking from 25 years as a child protection social worker. I’m talking from a place of seeing children left languishing in care in the hope that parents get it together and from studying research into outcomes for care experienced young people.

Yes there are flaws in the system but on the whole it’s incredibly difficult to remove parental rights and for the most part decision making bodies tend to err on the side of parents. Long term foster care leaves children in a place where every 6-12 months their care is reviewed which means a meeting to decide if they continue to stay with their carers.

I wonder how stable your life would be if every 12 months your whole living circumstances and family make up could change with you having no control over that decision. Starting school, having a LAC review, doing your SATS, let’s add in another LAC review, starting puberty, and a LAC review (where someone will probably mention to a table of 13 professionals that your period started). Studying for GCSEs, still got a LAC review... I wonder how we expect kids to cope with that level of uncertainty throughout their lives. While not perfect, adoption takes kids out of that process, gives them a secure base to grow from without their every move being recorded somewhere and shared for posterity.

So much consideration is given to birth parents in the child protection process, so much support and so many resources there has to be an end point for all concerned, adoption is that end point.

flapjackfairy · 21/06/2019 17:41

@jellycatspyjamas hear hear well said. I agree with every word .

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 17:53

If I have the conversation about improvement failings in education with educators it’s a bit like this:

-the learning of maths in Shanghai is amazing, the standards are mind blowing
-some chat about cost to mental heath etc from another

  • some talks about Finnish system, questions subjects at all, in favour of topics
  • someone else refers to pre- national curriculum failings
-bit of chat on phonics
  • bit of chat in American system of staying behind etc and Sen management
Etc, generally interested. Citing structure from around the world, different practice, studies and how it could be incorporated etc. Chats about children, how they learn, pedagogy and whole child education.

I wish I could have the same information I guess about care, discuss models. It’s all though ‘I think’, ‘I’ve seen’, ‘I know’, ‘my friend’ or pretty much RAH YOU LIVE RAPISTS DONT YOU! And abusers! I CARE FOR CHILDREN. You only care for... and shouty tactics or ‘duh’ (what I meant by not following is to say I consider the anology and leaps of logic bizarre and irrelevant as a reply).

Protecting rights isn’t the same as resisting any change or scrutiny. There are extreme failings, in not sure though if some
Posters think the mistakes are worth it or that they don’t accept there’s ever been a wrongful case (eg children removed on flawed medical grounds etc or first born in some cases).

Why is that people are so protective and unquestionably tied. Are there other models?

OP posts:
FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:02

@jellycatspyjamas ok, let’s create a system of long term permanent placements separate to short term. A third way. Removing the 12 month review for some. I know a number of adults who grew up with the same FC, genuine question- could this be formalised and if not why not? It’s a genuine question.

From what you’ve studied in other areas, has anything stood out. Have you come across a model in other country, or elements, that you have found superior to the UK. Or do you feel the UK would be the best? I don’t know, but does it vary across nations in any way? Which bits are good and bad?

OP posts:
darkriver19886 · 21/06/2019 18:04

I am a birth parent and find the resources are just not there anymore to support birth parents. I am not angry at social services OR the adopters but, I am frustrated with hearing that BPs get "plenty of support"

I didn't. I only got the "help" once I agreed to the plan for my daughters to be adopted. I found the crisis team as effective to help me then a chocolate teapot. This is despite the fact I was willing, turned up to every meeting, never missed contact and even researched on how to improve the things social services were critical of.

Obviously, services should be prioritied but the day my children were taken into care I rang the crisis team begging for help and was told to call back in an hour. There is plenty more where I can show you the files and point to you where I was failed by mental health services.

I however, admitted that I was struggling to cope with two children and it wasn't fair on them. So they will be officially adopted next month and I am left with a broken heart treated like a horrible mother despite the fact that even the judge said I wasn't a bad mum just an unwell one.

I don't buy into forced adoption or quotas but i do wish people would stop talking about "plenty of support" as it simply doesn't exist.

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:04

The problem I guess with ‘out the process’ is it’s untraceable in anyway, are outcomes ever compared? Are the voices of all parties recorded to inform the process, including the child’s into adulthood?

OP posts:
zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:05

But social care is the sum of the failures of EVERY OTHER SYSTEM. Failures of education, healthcare, economy etc end up at the door of the social welfare system.

And you haven't come in and asked what models are better. You don't even seem to really understand the details of the UK model. You seem to backtrack pretty quickly when asked for specifics and you're very clear that blah blah blah it's hard.

So what exactly is your point?

Public policy is hard. Knowledge acquisition is hard. If you want to really learn, REALLY LEARN, why not put some actual work into it?

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:09

@darkriver19886 I just want to say I believe you. I neither am saying that as I over identify as a parent, nor because I prejudge you.

Support isn’t there. I also think many families hit unnecessary crisis points. It’s bloody complex. It’s not always ‘hard’ to lose kids, and somethings children in the flip side are left in damaging situations. My bottom line is should an inadequate system be able to remove children? And I’m saying that for the children, there is some value in birth family bonds and it does impact the child, not just the parent as people paint it

OP posts:
zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:10

Are you a journalist? I can't work out why someone would be so insistent on trying to get surface level anecdotes on such a complex multifaceted issue?

Why not read the law society's reports or govt consultations? They are free, simply written and give a huge amount of background and context to govt legislation and changes.

You want someone to say "yeah, that's a great idea" so what? So you can drop it at some dinner party? There is no "simple" idea that fixes social care.

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:11

Ok @zweifler1 give me a few links, key words, places or something to go on and I’m happy to direct research towards it. I’ve struggled to wade through stuff online and as I’ve said what I see professionally is wildly mixed, though undeniably has issues.

OP posts:
zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:13

My bottom line is should an inadequate system be able to remove children? And I’m saying that for the children, there is some value in birth family bonds and it does impact the child, not just the parent as people paint it

you're acting as if this is some sort of profound insight rather than settled public norms for decades. You think people don't know that children value parental and familial bonds from their birth family? GOVERNMENT POLICY STATES THIS EXPLICITLY.

darkriver19886 · 21/06/2019 18:17

The other issue I am finding is that unless your like myself or miracle there is no support to help birth parents AFTER the adoption order has gone through. Recently after adoption went into administration and I haven't received any support since then. However, I pay for private therapy as the NHS can't meet my needs.

I am also on the other side of this. Despite multiple social service interventions that highlighted the fact I was being sexually abused at home by my stepfather I was left at home. I am deeply traumatised and live with an extremely complex diagnosis that was only diagnosed whilst I had to undertake psychiatric assessment directed by social services.

Birth parents go onto have more children because they haven't dealt with the heartbreak and it's a horrific cycle because they haven't dealt with the problems that led towards there kids being removed. Plus they are forever prejudice in the eyes of social services.

I rarely tell people I don't know that I am a birth parent. Often denying I have children due to the fear of judgement and stigma.

Also all borthparents are lumped together and just seen as angry.

zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:21

darkriver

Interesting that you are specific about your own situation and vague about your children's. Don't worry about being judged here though. Mumsnet is full of women whose children have been taken away from them and it is a very sympathetic place. I'm sure if your mother had been able to get on mumsnet during your childhood she'd have received tons of support about evil social services as well.

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:21

@darkriver19886 i don’t know what to say. I am sorry. I also believe strongly in believing children. There should be no two ways in the face of information about sexual abuse that action is not taken. I am not questioning that and you were failed

OP posts:
zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:22

FakeUsername

I'm happy to give links. I'm genuinely asking though: what is your question?

You just keep saying: it could be better. It's not great. Children need parents. The system is broken.

I don't know what your question is! I don't know what your critique is!

Maybe that's why you feel the answers are so snippy but it just sounds a lot more like a vague conspiratorial sense that ss are "against families" than any specific point.

BonnieBelleStarr · 21/06/2019 18:23

Too long to read op. You lost me mid way through.it felt like one of those mn surveys.

nickymanchester · 21/06/2019 18:25

While I don't disagree with what you say overall, I do disagree with this point:-

It's almost impossible to lose custody of your children

If you're talking about children going into care then in 2017/18 32,050 children started to be looked after in England. To put that in context (if my maths is correct!) that's 0.28% of all children or 1 in 350.

Or if you're talking about actual adoptions then, yes, in the same period there were only 3,820.

[[https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/children-looked-after-in-england-including-adoption-2017-to-2018 National Statistics Children looked after in England including adoption: 2017 to 2018

darkriver19886 · 21/06/2019 18:26

@zweifler1? I don't expect you to believe me. I am not sure where once I wrote the social services was evil. It's not social services I have the issue with and I recognise that adoption is the BEST thing for the girls. As I couldn't cope.

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:27

Wow that is uncalled for @zweifler1, you can be sympathetic to someone without validation, no need to be vicious. The woman has stated she has clear MH difficulties and you point score against me by bringing her sexual abuse into it? There is no correlation being her mothers actions and hers and she is not responsible for her nor a mirror for her. I do not know her story. But I do feel sorry for her being abused. That was not right. If her children needed protection that is right. But it doesn’t follow she is like her mother and that is horrible, tricky disgusting, to imply. I’m not sympathetic because she lost children, I am because as a CHILD she was abused. I can be sympathetic to the children also and want the best outcomes for her, without having to like her to a mother who enabled a sexual abuser

OP posts:
nickymanchester · 21/06/2019 18:27

Sorry, that was in reply to zweifler1

nickymanchester · 21/06/2019 18:28

And here's the clicky link, I'm really distracted today:-

National Statistics Children looked after in England including adoption: 2017 to 2018

zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:46

darkriver19886 FakeUsername

You think I'm point scoring? Who is the person point scoring? The person who created this silly thread dredging through people's trauma with journalistic indifference? Insulting social workers and belittling child abuse because you can't be bothered to read a newspaper?

I'm point scoring?

The point I am making which I stand by 100% is that online there will be no difference between the story told by darkriver and her mother. And both would get tons of sympathy and encouragement on mumsnet to thwart social services intervention because people identify with parents over children and care very little about children and children's rights.

also
There should be no two ways in the face of information about sexual abuse that action is not taken.

hahahahaha yes because in the case of child sexual abuse a magic camera appears in the sky and creates incontrovertible evidence that is easily proven in court. Evidence of child sexual abuse isn't exactly the same as other evidence - often circumstantial or ambiguous and generally dependent on child testimony which is seen as much less than parent's assertions. It doesn't occur in hand with other forms of abuse. There's no denial and obstruction from the other parent or wider family. It's super easy to remove children from homes in which sexual abuse occurs. Social workers don't do it, well probably because they are dumb dumbs.

zweifler1 · 21/06/2019 18:48

darkriver19886

you've only said it was the best thing now you've been challenged. Nobody speaks for the children. The parents get all the sympathy. The social workers get all the excoriation and the children are left to rot.

FakeUsername · 21/06/2019 18:54

I’ve been polite to social workers on here. You obviously have a personal bug that means you read this through a filter for some reason.

Journalistic indifference is odd, I’ve engaged personally and deliberately with stories so as not to dismiss feelings when people have shared. I’ve made a point to note people in various situations.

Obviously you can proceed as you see fit but I find your posts bizarre, irrational and quite aggressive with leaps of logic that can’t be answered.

I wish you well in whatever place you are in but if you chose to carry on I will no longer be replying as there is no way forward in the face of the hyperbole and accusations thrown out. You are clearly under no circumstances going to engage in anything with me other than insults and false labelling.

@nickymanchester thank you, I’ve been reading your link and another that referenced it. I work with teens and I think to some degree in reflection I am maybe skewed in my views due to seeing that age group.

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread