Should men be allowed to "opt out" of parenthood?

[Jemimapuddleduckpancake]

My friend has a child who was ultimately the result of a very casual, friends with benefits type situation. The father was immediately sure that he didn't want a baby and told her from the very beginning. He wasn't around and didn't help out for the first couple of years, but has now decided that he wants to have access to the child and start to build a relationship now he is older.

My friend doesn't trust him, doesn't like him, and is deeply hurt over all the things she has had to go through alone because of his previous lack of involvement and support. But she's worried that she is totally unable to prevent him from ever having access, and feels that he has put her in a horrible and stressful situation.

Which led us to think about this.

When a woman falls pregnant from a one night stand or casual-sex type scenario, she can choose whether to keep the baby, or go through an abortion or out the baby up for adoption. Thus ultimately "opting out" of parenthood.

A man in the same situation has no such right to opt out of parenthood. He has to accept the woman's decision and his life will be impacted by the woman's decision.

My friend believes that she was unrealistic during pregnancy. She firmly believed that the dad would "come round", that he'd see the baby and suddenly fall in love and want to be involved. But of course this didn't happen.

So we started to discuss, what if there was the option for a man to "opt out" of parenthood? It would, of course, have to be done very early on - before the baby was 1 month old, for example. Her idea is that this could be done by signing a legal document stating that he has no desire to be a part of the child's life in any way, will not ever be able to seek any type of access, and will not pay money. This move would have to be irreversible in order to be taken seriously. (Perhaps there could be some terms and conditions like the situation can be reversed but only with the mother's permission).

Now, i know a lot of women on Mumsnet like to say that if a man doesn't want a child then he shouldn't have sex or should use contraception. But I believe in total equality between the sexes and feel that this is unfair. Two people choose to have sex, two people choose whether or not to use contraception, but only one person can decide whether or not they will keep a child if an accident does happen.

I know so many people whose lives are made miserable by constantly battling men for money for their child, or by trying to encourage contact between their child and a man who just isn't interested.

Don't get me wrong - I think this is awful. But wouldn't it save the mother and the child both significant stress and heartache if they can live their lives without these battles? Surely knowing where you stand from the very start will stop all the disappointment and the emotional rollercoaster and stress that so many people experience.

And is it fair for a women to force a child (or the responsibilities that come from having a child, like maintainance) onto a man who knows immediately that he doesn't want a child?

My friend says that with hindsight, she just don't see how this current situation benefits anyone. Men can easily belittle women by claiming that they were "tricked" into having a baby. If there was this "opt out" system, they wouldn't be able to argue this!

The mother also wouldn't have to worry about a deadbeat dad who hasn't done anything for her/her child suddenly popping up deciding they now want to be in the child's life.

My friend says that looking back, although it seems harsh, knowing that this "opt out" system existed would his would actually have helped her. She'd have been much more prepared for single parenthood, much more prepared for being financially responsible for the baby by herself. She'd have been able to prepare better and not have the crushing blows and disappointment and feelings of rejection that come from his behaviour. She'd also not have to now worry about granting a man who is (now) a virtual stranger access to her child.

She thinks that if a man doesn't sign this before baby is month old, then he can't sign it at all, and will be fully responsible for the child in terms is maintainance and anything else, which should then be more strictly implemented (harsher punishments for not paying, for example).

(I thought maybe it would be better if the deadline for opting out was before baby's birth, but she says she still believes that some men will see their child at the birth and fall in love and therefore be given the chance to be involved.)

Of course there would have to be some regulations like if a women can prove that a baby was discussed or planned then the man can't opt out, for example.

What do the rest of you think? I'm really curious about this. On the one hand yes, if you don't want a baby then use contraception. But on the other hand, accidents happen and I can't help but agree with my friend that men should be allowed to opt out just as women can.

At first I thought this was a crazy idea but the more I think about it, the more I think it could help. The UK could issue MUCH stricter punishments to men who don't pay (because if they haven't opted out then they have no right at all, and no excuses, like they make now). It would in many ways protect the mother and child too.

Thoughts, anyone?

(Please don't kill me, I'm just curious to hear ideas from all sides, I'm not fully persuaded! Not that what I think really matters - and it won't happen anyway. But would it be better or worse for people if it did?)

@IsabellaLinton it is not bullshit.

We do not live in an equal society. We live in a society that is a heady mix of disingenuous aspirations towards equality, some attempts to establish and sustain equality and a lot of inequality. Much of the most damaging inequality manifests itself over a long term resulting in the positioning of women in often thankless and vulnerable situations. Ascribing choice and in this case choice regarding contraception is not an exception to that analogy. In fact I would go so far as to say the pressure is almost always upon the woman and hardly ever the man to ensure unplanned pregnancy doesn’t occur. How many times must ignorance or assumption have been pleaded by a man in this situation but if a woman had been so stupid she’d be tarred and feathered. Whereas the man, poor little lamb he’s been hoodwinked. No he was a lazy irresponsible arse himself too. Somehow it’s even the woman’s fault if he CHOSES not to wear a condom regardless of what she is using or as you imply choses not to use to protect her risk.

Men can and do opt of being a father. Hundreds of men do this day after day. What they can't do is opt of out paying for the child (allegedly).

This is not to benefit the mother. It is to benefit the state and the child. If men get the chance to opt out of paying for the result of their choice to have unprotected sex who should pay for the child?

I'm a single mother. I work 60-70 hours a week. It's still not enough, even with the pitiful amount of CM I get. If my ex had the option to opt out of paying he would grab it with both hands, should the state be forced to make up the shortfall? Or should I try to work 100 hours a week while raising two kids alone? Or should my kids be forced into poverty? How do you see this working, OP?

And what if the father gets back into a relationship with the mother, does the opt out still apply? Will he still have no obligations to his own child despite living in the same house? What happens if they split again?

It’s all unworkable.

A woman having sex with 50 men can only get pregnant and produce a child once every 9 months; a man having sex with 50 women can get 50 women pregnant and produce 50 children perpetually

Well that’s nature. Not a lot to be done about that.

But somehow the focus is all on women's choices and women's responsibility.

Because women should bear none? They make the ultimate choice as to whether to have a child.

(Perhaps there could be some terms and conditions like the situation can be reversed but only with the mother's permission)

what about the child's permission?

Of course there would have to be some regulations like if a women can prove that a baby was discussed or planned then the man can't opt out

How would you actually prove that? Seriously?

@Ginlinessisnexttogodliness

Nope, not buying it. Women have more choices and more options than men, but still complain.

I can’t feel any sympathy for a woman who makes the choice to become a mother when she didn’t take proper responsibility for herself not not getting into a situation which she could have avoided if she’d wanted - twice. A man has one chance. Women have two.

That’s not what this thread is about. It’s about men’s rights and responsibilities re fatherhood.

@iggledaisy women with long term partners usually live with them and have a stable home etc, not just a casual come round for a shag living with parents

Anyone with an argument based on women hold all the cards is either deluded or a goady fucker. The children are what is important in this discussion. Most women who have been lone parents experience that the system is already stacked against us and our children.

I don't know why OP is pretending we as a society don't allow huge swathes of fathers to opt out. They can't be and aren't made to spend time with their kids and our child maintenance system is hardly robust. Sure, they make some absent parents pay, but let's be honest, if a dad is sufficiently motivated to avoid paying for his kids he can get out of it.

Thus, the premise of the OP is wrong.

@HJWT you've completely missed my point but I expected as much

No matter how despicably a woman behaves, it’s still a man’s fault. Would you say the same to a woman tricked into pregnancy? ‘Well, you still had the power to prevent it

Simply point out that a man who is not being denied access to condoms could use one.

Again, not comparable. Pregnancy and child birth can result in all manner of problems for the mother, physically, mentally, even death. Abortion can result in mental health problems and takes its toll on the body.

The only consequence for a man is that he has to pay child support.

That’s not really fair is it?

Yes they should be able to.

If women can terminate without permission from the man, a man should be able to walk away without permission from the woman.

A man should not be allowed to force a woman to terminate and a woman should be be allowed to force a man into parenthood.

Yes, a man could keep his penis in his pants, but a woman could keep her legs together. It takes two to make a baby.

If you want equality, yo have to accept equality, even if you don’t like the outcome.

I really wish more women would let go of the idea that ‘everything should be equal’, which leads to this kind of thinking. In a patriarchy it just plays into men’s hands.

This.

*Pregnancy and child birth can result in all manner of problems for the mother, physically, mentally, even death. Abortion can result in mental health problems and takes its toll on the body.G

The woman can terminate against the wishes of the man and avoid all that.

Biology is different. You can’t punish men for that.

Equal and fair are not the same.

Well that’s nature. Not a lot to be done about that.

Who said anything could be done about it? What are you on about?

*But somehow the focus is all on women's choices and women's responsibility.

Because women should bear none? They make the ultimate choice as to whether to have a child.*

Where did I say women should bear none? I was merely quoting a poster who pointed out correctly, that nen have far more capacity for producing unplanned children (in terms of numbers) yet the moral,vso isl, economic etc focus has always been heavily on women, not men - because people handily divorce men from the picture because they're so rarely the ones left caring for the child. All the moral outrage about sluts and single mothers, so little about man sluts and irresponsible fathers. It's merely a social/historical comnentary that gives context to this debate.

Pregnancy and child birth can result in all manner of problems for the mother, physically, mentally, even death. Abortion can result in mental health problems and takes its toll on the body.

Either way they make a choice. Women don’t have to suffer any of this if they don’t wish it.

The only consequence for a man is that he has to pay child support

Forced into abiding by the decisions someone else has made for him. No choice here.

• commentary

Equal vs fair.

You can’t punish men just because they can’t get pregnant. They cannot be the SAME. Each should be able to walk away in their own ways.

@IsabellaLinton

You say Well that’s nature. Not a lot to be done about that.

Well that's the same reason that women get to choose whether to have a child or not at a later point than a man does. Simple biology demands it. All a man has to do to avoid getting a woman pregnant (which is the only part he has to play in procreation) is to keep his sperm to himself. A woman can take steps both to not get pregnant AND then take additional steps to end a pregnancy if she does get pregnant. That's nature.

Society is the force that demands parents pay for any children they do create. This is nothing to do with the point they made that choice.

Yes, a man could keep his penis in his pants, but a woman could keep her legs together. It takes two to make a baby.If you want equality, yo have to accept equality, even if you don’t like the outcome.

This.

A man should not be allowed to force a woman to terminate and a woman should be be allowed to force a man into parenthood.

Sorry, that should read:

A man should not be allowed to force a woman to terminate and a woman should be not be allowed to force a man into parenthood.

Forced into abiding by the decisions someone else has made for him. No choice here

Did someone else decide to stick his dick in the woman for him?!

The SECOND a man penetrates a woman, he should know (or at least any man with an ounce of gumption should know) that a pregnancy can occur.

THAT is the point he gets to opt out of parenthood either by absteining/wearing a condom.

If he chooses to go ahead, then its possible a pregnancy can occur. Should he be able to opt out because he didn't have the wit to consider it? Nah.

Well, no, because it's really all about the resulting baby isn't it?

It's incredibly foolish for two people to wind up in this circumstance, where there's an unintended pregnancy and neither had any idea that they wouldn't be on the same page, but it happens all the time.