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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should men be allowed to "opt out" of parenthood?

999 replies

Jemimapuddleduckpancake · 20/06/2019 09:08

My friend has a child who was ultimately the result of a very casual, friends with benefits type situation. The father was immediately sure that he didn't want a baby and told her from the very beginning. He wasn't around and didn't help out for the first couple of years, but has now decided that he wants to have access to the child and start to build a relationship now he is older.

My friend doesn't trust him, doesn't like him, and is deeply hurt over all the things she has had to go through alone because of his previous lack of involvement and support. But she's worried that she is totally unable to prevent him from ever having access, and feels that he has put her in a horrible and stressful situation.

Which led us to think about this.

When a woman falls pregnant from a one night stand or casual-sex type scenario, she can choose whether to keep the baby, or go through an abortion or out the baby up for adoption. Thus ultimately "opting out" of parenthood.

A man in the same situation has no such right to opt out of parenthood. He has to accept the woman's decision and his life will be impacted by the woman's decision.

My friend believes that she was unrealistic during pregnancy. She firmly believed that the dad would "come round", that he'd see the baby and suddenly fall in love and want to be involved. But of course this didn't happen.

So we started to discuss, what if there was the option for a man to "opt out" of parenthood? It would, of course, have to be done very early on - before the baby was 1 month old, for example. Her idea is that this could be done by signing a legal document stating that he has no desire to be a part of the child's life in any way, will not ever be able to seek any type of access, and will not pay money. This move would have to be irreversible in order to be taken seriously. (Perhaps there could be some terms and conditions like the situation can be reversed but only with the mother's permission).

Now, i know a lot of women on Mumsnet like to say that if a man doesn't want a child then he shouldn't have sex or should use contraception. But I believe in total equality between the sexes and feel that this is unfair. Two people choose to have sex, two people choose whether or not to use contraception, but only one person can decide whether or not they will keep a child if an accident does happen.

I know so many people whose lives are made miserable by constantly battling men for money for their child, or by trying to encourage contact between their child and a man who just isn't interested.

Don't get me wrong - I think this is awful. But wouldn't it save the mother and the child both significant stress and heartache if they can live their lives without these battles? Surely knowing where you stand from the very start will stop all the disappointment and the emotional rollercoaster and stress that so many people experience.

And is it fair for a women to force a child (or the responsibilities that come from having a child, like maintainance) onto a man who knows immediately that he doesn't want a child?

My friend says that with hindsight, she just don't see how this current situation benefits anyone. Men can easily belittle women by claiming that they were "tricked" into having a baby. If there was this "opt out" system, they wouldn't be able to argue this!

The mother also wouldn't have to worry about a deadbeat dad who hasn't done anything for her/her child suddenly popping up deciding they now want to be in the child's life.

My friend says that looking back, although it seems harsh, knowing that this "opt out" system existed would his would actually have helped her. She'd have been much more prepared for single parenthood, much more prepared for being financially responsible for the baby by herself. She'd have been able to prepare better and not have the crushing blows and disappointment and feelings of rejection that come from his behaviour. She'd also not have to now worry about granting a man who is (now) a virtual stranger access to her child.

She thinks that if a man doesn't sign this before baby is month old, then he can't sign it at all, and will be fully responsible for the child in terms is maintainance and anything else, which should then be more strictly implemented (harsher punishments for not paying, for example).

(I thought maybe it would be better if the deadline for opting out was before baby's birth, but she says she still believes that some men will see their child at the birth and fall in love and therefore be given the chance to be involved.)

Of course there would have to be some regulations like if a women can prove that a baby was discussed or planned then the man can't opt out, for example.

What do the rest of you think? I'm really curious about this. On the one hand yes, if you don't want a baby then use contraception. But on the other hand, accidents happen and I can't help but agree with my friend that men should be allowed to opt out just as women can.

At first I thought this was a crazy idea but the more I think about it, the more I think it could help. The UK could issue MUCH stricter punishments to men who don't pay (because if they haven't opted out then they have no right at all, and no excuses, like they make now). It would in many ways protect the mother and child too.

Thoughts, anyone?

(Please don't kill me, I'm just curious to hear ideas from all sides, I'm not fully persuaded! Not that what I think really matters - and it won't happen anyway. But would it be better or worse for people if it did?)

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 12:37

So you are saying then that every woman who gets pregnant has chosen that? Because clearly, if she didn't want to get pregnant she would have been responsible for her own contraception - right?

Honestly, do you not get sick of typing this out every five minutes? My answer is the same as the last time you asked, and the same as every other person you’ve asked.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 12:37

I am perfectly and more than aware that we don’t have equality for everything. I know you as a man will never need an abortion, or stitches to repair a third degree tear, or have mastitis, or a caesarean scar, or die giving birth. That is why I am entitled to end a pregnancy and you are not entitled to opt out of parenting. Different roles in the process, different rights. Very simple

Yes and I have agreed a man shouldn't be able to end a pregnancy, (A million times )Her rights with her body remain the same !! Just by saying "you are not entitled to opt out but I can".just sounds like a petulant child.

The thing that would change is that the woman may have to bring the child up alone. That would still be her decision
She has exactly the same rights.

I have previously said, I am not a man, I have given birth , I have had stitches, I have had my son in a neonatal ward, I have breastfed and all the issues that go with pregnancy and birth (not that it's relevant to the discussion ) but I had my child when I chose to, as that was my right.

Different roles in the process - both having sex, both creating a life - one person with all the rights of opting out of parenting, thats not equality for 2 people who have contributed to the situation.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 12:38

What's stopping you from being the CEO? Go for it.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 12:39

So you are saying then that every woman who gets pregnant has chosen that?

Well, they have chosen to risk pregnancy. They both have. Her no more than him. Just because she doesn’t then choose to go and kill it, doesn’t give him an excuse. She doesn’t have to kill it.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 12:41

Yes and I have agreed a man shouldn't be able to end a pregnancy, (A million times )Her rights with her body remain the same !! Just by saying "you are not entitled to opt out but I can".just sounds like a petulant child.

It sounds like the truth. The reason has been given to you about twenty times.

I have previously said, I am not a man, I have given birth , I have had stitches, I have had my son in a neonatal ward, I have breastfed and all the issues that go with pregnancy and birth (not that it's relevant to the discussion ) but I had my child when I chose to, as that was my right.

Fine. You are female. I will just ignore that, though, and talk to you as if you are the person who wants this additional right, so I can help you understand why you cannot have it.

BrainFart · 21/06/2019 12:41

Ah but it wouldn’t affect me, would it? I want to be a CEO so men should respect that want and give me it, even if it means they get fucked over. They chose to work there

OK, so it would appear you actually have little-to-no genuine interest in equality, and are merely looking out for 'your team'. It's interesting to debate with people who hold opposite positions to me in good faith. But when they hold these intentions with bad faith, then it becomes a pointless exercise.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 12:41

Different roles in the process - both having sex, both creating a life - one person with all the rights of opting out of parenting, thats not equality for 2 people who have contributed to the situation.

No. It isn’t.

Frequency · 21/06/2019 12:42

Different roles in the process - both having sex, both creating a life - one person with all the rights of opting out of parenting, thats not equality for 2 people who have contributed to the situation

Once the child is born it is not about the parents. It is about the child and to a lesser extent wider society. Both parents have equal rights but those rights do not supersede the rights of the child. The child has a right to be financially supported by both parents.

Can you imagine the uproar of tax-paying men who manage to use condoms if they were forced to pay for the off-spring of those who don't?

MirriVan · 21/06/2019 12:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrainFart · 21/06/2019 12:44

What's stopping you from being the CEO?

CEOs of FTSE100 companies don't spend a whole workday debating issues they have no control over with strangers on the internet who are not experts in the subject matter (and I include myself very much in that mockery) Grin

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 12:47

It’s like if my next door neighbour has a driveway and I don’t. They can park their car and I can’t. And I start moaning, asking where my equivalent right to park is. And someone says, you don’t have the right to park - you don’t have a driveway. So I say: “That’s not equality, then is it?”

Well, no, it’s not.

But then imagine the driveway was lined with nails and broken glass, and every time the person wanted to park their car they had to walk barefoot over it.

“Oh, no, I don’t want that right. I just want an equivalent right to park. You should build me a special car park.”

“But no broken glass or nails?”

“No.”

Hmm
Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 12:49

OK, so it would appear you actually have little-to-no genuine interest in equality, and are merely looking out for 'your team'. It's interesting to debate with people who hold opposite positions to me in good faith. But when they hold these intentions with bad faith, then it becomes a pointless exercise.

It’s an analogy. I thought that was clear - it’s a situation where women are not exactly equal to their male counterparts, and it’s a way of readdressing that balance. It was to highlight that equality doesn’t mean fairness. Or fairness doesn’t mean equality. That fucking over women because of what men want or don’t want is ridiculous. As is fucking over men because of what women want.

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 12:50

What's stopping you from being the CEO? Go for it.

Illness, I’m afraid, in my case at least. But you couldn’t have known that Flowers

ChristinaMarlowe · 21/06/2019 12:54

@53rdWay “Sorry, love, I know you’re 6 months pregnant and all, but I don’t really fancy this whole ‘dad’ thing any more”?**

Exactly what happened to me. 3 year relationship, planned baby. At 6 months he told me (quote), "I'm just not feeling it". Yes, really. Those exact words. Wanker. He saw her once at 12 days old and that's it. I didn't put him on the birth certificate and have never taken a penny from him (not that he offered). I am now married to a wonderful man and DC2 is due next month. Once she's here and registered DH is adopting DC1. I doubt the sperm donor will ever change his mind but if he does he'll be unlucky. He lives locally (10m drive) b t has never once tried to see her or even sent a birthday card.

ChristinaMarlowe · 21/06/2019 12:56

Should have mentioned DC1 is 7 at Christmas so not as if he's not had time to think about it!

BrainFart · 21/06/2019 12:58

It’s an analogy. I thought that was clear - it’s a situation where women are not exactly equal to their male counterparts, and it’s a way of readdressing that balance. It was to highlight that equality doesn’t mean fairness. Or fairness doesn’t mean equality. That fucking over women because of what men want or don’t want is ridiculous. As is fucking over men because of what women want.

I didn't find it clear. The women who make it as CEOs are exactly equal to their male counterparts. The women who don't become CEOs do so because they didn't make the grade. Much like the thousands of men who would have put themselves forward to be CEOs. The ones who decided they didn't want to put in the work required to be CEOs made there own choices. The system demands that whoever puts in 18 hours a day for 30 years of continuous work, or who has the genius to found a successful company, gets to be a CEO. There aren't different rules for men and women.

I basically agree, fairness doesn't equal equality and vice versa. So if the argument stops coming about the "gender pay gap" and CEO numbers, then I'm perfectly happy for men to not have an opt-out. My position is consistent. Results of biology don't get smoothed out by legislation. Or if you want the "gender pay gap" and CEO numbers to be smoothed out by legislation, then accept that there will be some issues which will smooth out "in favour" of men as well.

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 13:05

The women who don't become CEOs do so because they didn't make the grade. Much like the thousands of men who would have put themselves forward to be CEOs.

I absolutely disagree with this, and so do you, because you said biology was the reason, not a lack of desire to work hard. Maternity leave, childcare, a desire to be with their children - all reasons you gave earlier in the thread. Not ‘can’t be arsed working for it’

There’s only about ten comments left in this thread so let’s not fill it with a derail about the gender pay gap and the lack of opportunities open to women in the work place. I struggle to believe that there are people who think that women just don’t want it enough, or aren’t ambitious enough, or don’t work hard enough, that men are fundamentally better, cleverer, harder workers who have absolutely no hand up whatsoever - but that’s maybe for a different thread.

MirriVan · 21/06/2019 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MirriVan · 21/06/2019 13:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 13:14

Fine. You are female. I will just ignore that, though,

Yep that's the attitude to have,why let the facts get in the way, at least you are consistent, I will give you that 😂😂

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 13:15

The women who make it as CEOs are exactly equal to their male counterparts

Should have added - the parents are exactly equal too, once the baby is born. No more the responsibility of one over the other.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 13:15

Fine. You are female. I will just ignore that, though

@herculepoirot2 Yep that's the attitude to have,why let the facts get in the way, at least you are consistent, I will give you that 😂😂

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 13:15

Yep that's the attitude to have,why let the facts get in the way, at least you are consistent, I will give you that 😂😂

It has no bearing on this debate, does it?

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 13:19

*Yep that's the attitude to have,why let the facts get in the way, at least you are consistent, I will give you that 😂😂

It has no bearing on this debate, does it?

no it does not, but when bring them in and start using these experiences to form part of your argument and insinuating I wouldn't understand , it then does.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 13:24

Once the child is born it is not about the parents.

Absolutely it is about the child. And the child having the best upbringing possible by whomever has decided to take on that role.

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