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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?

303 replies

Thewindblows · 18/06/2019 19:34

dons hard hat

Now hear me out!

Every time I hear this argument I think;

  1. It seems to assume that a human being's impact on the environment is equal to the sum total of their carbon footprint. Isn't life a lot more complex than that? Don't we all influence each other?
To take an obvious example - David Attenburgh has probably taken a SHITLOAD of international flights in his life, his carbon footprint must be massive. But would anyone say the world would have been better off without him, when through his work he has brought environmental awareness to millions? Of course the vast majority of us are not David Attenburgh. But let's say Jean Smith from down the road also cares lots about the environment, and tries her best to reduce her consumption and do her bit. Now, OF COURSE she is personally using more of the world's resources than if she didn't exist at all. But what if she has, through her lifestyle and activism, encouraged 5 of her friends to use cloth nappies and second hand clothes? Encouraged a few more to reduce their daily plastic use? Made one friend rethink his yearly long haul holiday? Through her activism, she has helped to push through plastic bag and bottle bans, and preserve a local woodland? How do we calculate this against her personal carbon footprint?
  1. People are, on average, fairly likely to have beliefs/follow lifestyles broadly similar to their parents (isn't this why some organised religions encourage people to have many children?)
The only people who are likely to be persuaded not to have kids for environmental reasons, are people who already care about the environment.

So let's say in both country A and B, 50% of couples care about the environment deeply, 50% of them are climate change deniers.
In country A, all the environmentalist couples decide it is best not to have children. All the deniers go ahead and have 2 kids per couple.
When the next generation grows up and is making the decisions ALL of them are the children of parents who don't care for the environment.
In country B, all the couples have 2 children. The next generation has 50% offspring of environmentalists, and 50% of deniers.
Yes, country B does now have a bigger population - but is it not clear that it also stands a vastly greater chance of implementing policies and making the real societal changes necessary to preserve the environment?

Considering the above, is it not better for someone who cares about the environment to actually have children if they want to, and raise them as responsibly as possible?
(Note by responsibly I don't just mean they try to remember their reusable bags at the supermarket sometimes - I'm talking the parents making real effort in every area of their lives personally, and also being involved in activism/campaigning/politics to try and effect real change. Modeling this to their children and raising responsible caring people.)

I'm willing to hear counter arguments to this!! Genuinely interested in what people think.

OP posts:
tigertiger10 · 21/06/2019 17:56

Don't believe everything you read on the internet Laminate. The author of that article is Doris Lin, "the director of legal affairs for the Animal Protection League of New Jersey". If she's not a scientist working in a university an publishing in peer-reviewed journals, her opinion is just as valid as mine. Or vice versa.

This document from the UN is worth perusing. Note especially their own comment:

"Among the world’s six largest CO2 emitters, trends in total CO2 emissions and total energy use track population trends only loosely. Other drivers include economic factors that influence consumption patterns, the adoption of technologies that improve energy
efficiency, and shifts towards cleaner energy sources."

There you have it. From the horse's mouth. There is no direct correlation between population and CO2 emissions.

Why are so many people so evangelical in their desire to limit other people's family size? That's a whole other debate I suppose.

tigertiger10 · 21/06/2019 17:58

Blimey I missed this little gem.

"I wouldn't get too hung up on facts though." Are you actually saying we should disregard facts?! That's a statement worthy of Donald Trump!

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 18:02

There you have it. From the horse's mouth. There is no direct correlation between population and CO2 emissions.

That's nice.

Can you find the bit where it also says there is no direct correlation between population and food needed. Or indeed water ? That would be far more useful. (If true). CO₂ is the least of our worries as a species.

Why are so many people so evangelical in their desire to limit other people's family size? That's a whole other debate I suppose.

Have as many kids as you like. Hell, have some on me. But don't think for one moment your changing the yoghurt you eat to cut down on plastic is in anyway going to mitigate the consequences of human activity on the planet.

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 18:04

"I wouldn't get too hung up on facts though." Are you actually saying we should disregard facts?! That's a statement worthy of Donald Trump!

Whoosh. Irony fail ....

Doobigetta · 21/06/2019 18:05

The simple fact is, if you have even one child, you are no longer in control of what your descendants’ environmental footprint is. That one child could have eight children, all of whom have eight children, and so on, forever. All of those descendants could devote their lives to building coal fired power stations and lobbying to get environmental protection laws scrapped. Your descendants could turn out to do more harm to the planet than everyone else put together. It’s completely beyond your knowledge or control. Whereas if you don’t any children, you can guarantee with absolute certainty that the drain from your DNA on the planet’s resources will end when you die.
I’m not saying it’s a particularly good reason for having or not having children, but it’s just a fact. There’s no point getting defensive about it.

ChocOrCheese · 21/06/2019 18:13

I cannot support the OP's argument. It immediately whisks away my moral high ground when I point out just how much I have done for the environment by not reproducing.

takes tongue out of cheek

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 18:16

takes tongue out of cheek

Need to be careful on threads like this Grin ...

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 18:20

I’m with you @tigertiger10 there is whole other agenda going on here 😊

theconstantinoplegardener · 21/06/2019 18:29

I think the birth rate should be limited, either legally or socially...but one thing about having a child /children is that in most cases one does have a stake in the planet's future, a concern for the earth's wellbeing since that is what one's children will depend on. Without that, I wonder if some people are more likely to have a great time consuming resources, safe in the knowledge that they or their descendents will not be around to face climate catastrophe.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 18:37

@theconstantino where are we going to limit birth rate? It won’t work if you just do it one country it has to be worldwide as i’ve been told it’s a global issue not down one country?

tigertiger10 · 21/06/2019 20:36

Prove that there’s insufficient water or food laminate. You’ve mistaken assertion for fact. While scoffing at me.

theconstantinoplegardener · 21/06/2019 20:47

Gino I agree, it should be global. I don't think it will happen though. In reality, I think societies will slowly start to limit their own birth rates...some have already...but it's just down to individual choice at the moment. I think maybe populations have to be "nudged" towards smaller families.

CountFosco · 21/06/2019 22:13

There you have it. From the horse's mouth. There is no direct correlation between population and CO2 emissions.

That'll be because rich westerners (that's us) use up far more resources than poor people in developing nations. Not exactly a surprise.

AlaskanOilBaron · 22/06/2019 07:18

There you have it. From the horse's mouth. There is no direct correlation between population and CO2 emissions.

Well, not exactly. Populations lay in wait, getting huge/rich, and then their consumption shoots through into the stratosphere.

Like China and India.

Where did you get the idea that anyone accepts the UN as the final arbiter of all things environmental? They're not the horse's mouth, they're just one voice of many.

As for food, well, something like a billion people are hungry right now. The way in which we feed ourselves has directly damaged the planet, most say beyond repair; deforestation for grazing--> declining biodiversity, oceans and overfishing, packaging/plastics, antibiotic use in agriculture as a matter of course, pesticides & run-off, the list goes on.

I'm really curious where you go the idea that our food supply chains are doing well even now, that's before the population is set to expand by what, another 2 billion in 30 years?

AlaskanOilBaron · 22/06/2019 07:20

I’m with you @tigertiger10 there is whole other agenda going on here

What exactly do you think the agenda is?

Gin96 · 22/06/2019 07:36

One thing this has proven to me is you can’t control our population here without controlling immigration and you can’t control the population worldwide we are so small in comparison

AlaskanOilBaron · 22/06/2019 07:49

One thing this has proven to me is you can’t control our population here without controlling immigration and you can’t control the population worldwide we are so small in comparison

I see your point, sort of, because there's a local effect to overpopulation, but what you're missing is that in the main, overpopulation is a global issue. The icebergs in the North Atlantic are not melting because there's too many people in Greenland, right?

BeansandRice · 22/06/2019 07:53

No, OP I’m afraid no number of the kinds of arguments that you put forward mitigate against the fact that every child born in the affluent global North ( or West) uses around 4 times the resources of any child born in the global South.

The best thing we can do for the world in the UK in the terms that you set out, is not to have children but allow migration. There are more than enough people in the world. The issue is, as always, uneven distribution.

BeansandRice · 22/06/2019 07:55

but one thing about having a child /children is that in most cases one does have a stake in the planet's future, a concern for the earth's wellbeing

Oh that is rubbish.

How many children has Donald Trump - or any other climate change denier - fathered?

Way to go, just blame the childless. Again.

CoffeeMilkNoSugar · 22/06/2019 08:44

There's this one comment way back in the thread that made me a little confused.

How is it a Dangerous Situation where Europeans have less children than those from other continents? Fear of a black world, huh? Risking our supremacy, huh?

Jesus...

Gin96 · 22/06/2019 09:33

Because we will be taken over by immigration if we stop having children, look at the global numbers we are already so tiny in the big scheme of things

Gin96 · 22/06/2019 09:46

What I said earlier:

By 2070, the bulk of the world's population growth is predicted to take place in Africa: of the additional 2.4 billion people projected between 2015 and 2050, 1.3 billion will be added in Africa, 0.9 billion in Asia and only 0.2 billion in the rest of the world.

BeansandRice · 22/06/2019 10:37

*we will be taken over by immigration if we stop having children•

Ugh, what in inhuman attitude to fellow human beings. People who think this way really need to see beyond “Little England.”

Gin96 · 22/06/2019 10:42

Please give me a counter arguement how not having children will make a difference, it will not. We have no control over the population look at the numbers world wide us having children makes no difference

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 12:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.