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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?

303 replies

Thewindblows · 18/06/2019 19:34

dons hard hat

Now hear me out!

Every time I hear this argument I think;

  1. It seems to assume that a human being's impact on the environment is equal to the sum total of their carbon footprint. Isn't life a lot more complex than that? Don't we all influence each other?
To take an obvious example - David Attenburgh has probably taken a SHITLOAD of international flights in his life, his carbon footprint must be massive. But would anyone say the world would have been better off without him, when through his work he has brought environmental awareness to millions? Of course the vast majority of us are not David Attenburgh. But let's say Jean Smith from down the road also cares lots about the environment, and tries her best to reduce her consumption and do her bit. Now, OF COURSE she is personally using more of the world's resources than if she didn't exist at all. But what if she has, through her lifestyle and activism, encouraged 5 of her friends to use cloth nappies and second hand clothes? Encouraged a few more to reduce their daily plastic use? Made one friend rethink his yearly long haul holiday? Through her activism, she has helped to push through plastic bag and bottle bans, and preserve a local woodland? How do we calculate this against her personal carbon footprint?
  1. People are, on average, fairly likely to have beliefs/follow lifestyles broadly similar to their parents (isn't this why some organised religions encourage people to have many children?)
The only people who are likely to be persuaded not to have kids for environmental reasons, are people who already care about the environment.

So let's say in both country A and B, 50% of couples care about the environment deeply, 50% of them are climate change deniers.
In country A, all the environmentalist couples decide it is best not to have children. All the deniers go ahead and have 2 kids per couple.
When the next generation grows up and is making the decisions ALL of them are the children of parents who don't care for the environment.
In country B, all the couples have 2 children. The next generation has 50% offspring of environmentalists, and 50% of deniers.
Yes, country B does now have a bigger population - but is it not clear that it also stands a vastly greater chance of implementing policies and making the real societal changes necessary to preserve the environment?

Considering the above, is it not better for someone who cares about the environment to actually have children if they want to, and raise them as responsibly as possible?
(Note by responsibly I don't just mean they try to remember their reusable bags at the supermarket sometimes - I'm talking the parents making real effort in every area of their lives personally, and also being involved in activism/campaigning/politics to try and effect real change. Modeling this to their children and raising responsible caring people.)

I'm willing to hear counter arguments to this!! Genuinely interested in what people think.

OP posts:
LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 17:46

All that will happen is we will be replaced by immigration because we are told we need this for our economy so you won’t make a difference until immigration is slowed down

Immigration ? Or mass migration. When the world heats up and dries up (apart from the bits that disappear under the waves) there will be a lot more people needing to live in a lot less space.

Or the world could cool down, and we'll see the glaciers return. Big time. Europe under a mile of ice. And yes, I know, parking will be a problem.

Valanice1989 · 20/06/2019 18:20

The last time this was discussed on MN, I was called "deplorable" for saying that having children doesn't help the environment. Glad to see people being less emotive on this thread!

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 07:00

For every child you don’t have in the UK there is a million people wanting to come to Europe, behind them 10 million, behind them 20 million, it’s like trying to stop a tide with a stick.

AlaskanOilBaron · 21/06/2019 07:30

I guess a lot of us are trying to get those engines started again and we really don’t need to keep loading the plane up with more people whilst we’re doing so on the vague off chance one of them turns out to be an aircraft mechanic

Brilliant. Wink

AlaskanOilBaron · 21/06/2019 07:33

The last time this was discussed on MN, I was called "deplorable" for saying that having children doesn't help the environment. Glad to see people being less emotive on this thread!

Emotive arguments are never helpful. In this particular case they're
normally rooted in deflection, cultural exceptionalism or ignorance.

givemesteel · 21/06/2019 07:53

leckford up thread makes a very good point about AI. In a decade or two a lot of jobs will be taken over by AI, including some more skilled jobs (for instance in medicine with diagnosis).

I don't believe in the UK itself we have a big problem with over population in terms of birth rate as for every adult that has more than two kids there are a lot more who have none. Limiting child benefit to two kids is also an environmentally sound policy as people now do consider how many children they can actually afford.

But AI should be a big consideration for immigration policy moving forwards as we are better off becoming a low immigration, low birth rate country with AI doing jobs traditionally low-skilled immigrants have done, whilst up skilling our own work force so we need fewer skilled immigrants.

We can't do much about the population explosion elsewhere but I think the countries that will survive the effects of climate change will be those with lower populations.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 08:11

India’s population alone is 1.3 billion, the whole of Europe is half of that, 600 million, if they were offered to come to Europe how many would jump at the chance?

Vulpine · 21/06/2019 08:22

Not as many as you think

AlaskanOilBaron · 21/06/2019 08:36

India’s population alone is 1.3 billion, the whole of Europe is half of that, 600 million, if they were offered to come to Europe how many would jump at the chance?

23% of India is living in poverty according to my google search so I'd guess probably about 300 million. Obviously, we don't know.

But as for your point that we can't stem the tide, Gin, once a woman (or girl!) starts having children in lesser developed countries, she is very likely to receive a visit from some kind of UN quango offering her birth control.

AnAC12UCOinanOCG · 21/06/2019 08:39

tigertiger10 Still waiting to hear why you think the UN supports your position?

Gin96 Your logic is also... not logic.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 08:50

We’ll have to agree to disagree. 2015 over 1 million people came to Europe, the only thing that stopped more people migrating is the gates of Europe went up, next time it could be 20 million. It all depends on the powers that be at the top if they decide we need to top our population, they just open the gates.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 09:07

@AlaskanOilBaron well there not giving out enough to women as the worlds population is growing at an extortionate rate

Laterthanyouthink · 21/06/2019 09:14

100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions

www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

What individuals can do is stop investing in these companies.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?
QuestionableMouse · 21/06/2019 11:12

I posted that a couple of pages ago. No-one seems interested in it. We can recycle and reduce all we like but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the big polluting companies.

AlaskanOilBaron · 21/06/2019 11:57

Yes, but the big polluting companies are just us. Consumers.

Laterthanyouthink · 21/06/2019 13:04

Sorry Questonablemouse, I missed your post! It just seems the answer is legislation against fossil fuels and quickly so that will affect cars, heating and plastics, we need those global agreements that countries sign up to and sanctions if they fail to curb those industries.

We have known this for years. Individuals can make different choices that may start to have an affect though, if we all stopped buying cars there would be no market but that isn't likely to happen unless we have societal change.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 13:07

Africa’s population is 1.3 billion, 43% live in poverty, i’m sure if they were offered to come to Europe they would happily oblige. We are a drop in the ocean re population growth, in comparison as most sensible women who have access to birth control would not choose to have a big family if we can’t afford to, so have as many children as you can afford to support as it won’t make a blind bit of difference to the population numbers overall

MirriVan · 21/06/2019 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gin96 · 21/06/2019 14:25

Yes I understand perfectly.

tigertiger10 · 21/06/2019 14:42

AnAC12UCOinanOCG I did explain. Population will grow then fall. No-one has explained on here how “overpopulation” is defined in scientific terms.

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 15:18

No-one has explained on here how “overpopulation” is defined in scientific terms.

Biological carrying capacity is defined as the maximum number of individuals of a species that can exist in a habitat indefinitely without threatening other species in that habitat. Factors such as available food, water, cover, prey and predator species will affect biological carrying capacity. Unlike cultural carrying capacity, biological carrying capacity cannot be influenced by public education.

When a species exceeds its biological carrying capacity, the species is overpopulated. A topic of much debate in recent years due to the rapidly expanding human populations, some scientists believe that humans have exceeded their biological carrying capacity.
Determining Carrying Capacity

Although the biology term was originally coined to describe how much a species could graze on a portion of land before permanently damaging its food yield, it was expanded later to include the more complex interactions between species such as predator-prey dynamics and the recent impact modern civilization has had on native species.

However, competition for shelter and food aren't the only factors that determine a particular species' carrying capacity, it also depends upon environmental factors not necessarily caused by natural processes — such as pollution and species of prey extinctions caused by mankind.

Now, ecologists and biologists determine the carrying capacity of individual species by weighing all of these factors and use the resultant data to best mitigate species overpopulation — or conversely extinction—which could wreak havoc on their delicate ecosystems and the global food web at large.

When a species exceeds its niche environment's carrying capacity it is referred to as being overpopulated in the area, which oftentimes leads to devastating results if left unchecked. Fortunately, the natural life cycles of and balance between predators and prey typically keep these outbreaks of overpopulation under control, at least in the long term.

Sometimes, though, a certain species will overpopulate resulting in the devastation of shared resources. If this animal happens to be a predator, it might over-consume the prey population, leading to that species' extinction and the unfettered reproduction of its own kind. Conversely, if a creature of prey is introduced, it might destroy all sources of edible vegetation, resulting in a decrease in other prey species' populations. Typically, it balances out—but when it doesn't, the entire ecosystem risks destruction.

One of the most common examples of how close to the edge some ecosystems are to this destruction is the alleged overpopulation of the human race. Since the end of the Bubonic Plague at the turn of the 15th century, the human population has been steadily and exponentially increasing, most significantly within the last 70 years.

Scientists have determined that the carrying capacity of Earth for humans lies somewhere between four billion and 15 billion persons. The human population of the world as of 2018 was nearly 7.6 billion, and the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs Population Division estimating an additional 3.5 billion population growth by the year 2100.

Humans are in a position where they have to work on their ecological footprint if they hope to survive the next century on this planet.

M3lon · 21/06/2019 15:19

over population means that the human population is using more of the resource of the planet than is sustainable.

Its can be fixed by changing the number of people (relatively easy), or by changing the resource usage (relatively hard).

In other news there are currently more than 10000 planes in the air...

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 15:30

Its can be fixed by changing the number of people (relatively easy), or by changing the resource usage (relatively hard).

Or by increasing the resources available.

tigertiger10 · 21/06/2019 16:03

Laminate Thanks for that. Is it you or from a published source? If so could you share where it’s from please?

If “scientists have determined” the carrying capacity, how come it’s already been exceeded (in its lower range)? Not very scientific, is it? Also, if the upper end of the range is 15 billion, that’s well below the UN’s own prediction of the top figure for population before it starts to drop again.

FTAOD I’m not saying that we should carry on regardless. Clearly, resources are finite and it’s not sustainable for the west in particular to be so greedy with natural resources.

LaminateAnecdotes · 21/06/2019 16:17

Laminate Thanks for that. Is it you or from a published source? If so could you share where it’s from please?

www.thoughtco.com/what-is-biological-carrying-capacity-127889

To be honest I just googled "scientific definition of overpopulation" and selected the most succinct link.

I wouldn't get too hung up on facts though. People know what they know, they act as they act, and that's pretty much how life goes. If you can suck up more than your fair share of resources then you will. If you can't, you won't but will want to. Everyone wants to save the planet until it means a wait in the rain for a bus.