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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?

303 replies

Thewindblows · 18/06/2019 19:34

dons hard hat

Now hear me out!

Every time I hear this argument I think;

  1. It seems to assume that a human being's impact on the environment is equal to the sum total of their carbon footprint. Isn't life a lot more complex than that? Don't we all influence each other?
To take an obvious example - David Attenburgh has probably taken a SHITLOAD of international flights in his life, his carbon footprint must be massive. But would anyone say the world would have been better off without him, when through his work he has brought environmental awareness to millions? Of course the vast majority of us are not David Attenburgh. But let's say Jean Smith from down the road also cares lots about the environment, and tries her best to reduce her consumption and do her bit. Now, OF COURSE she is personally using more of the world's resources than if she didn't exist at all. But what if she has, through her lifestyle and activism, encouraged 5 of her friends to use cloth nappies and second hand clothes? Encouraged a few more to reduce their daily plastic use? Made one friend rethink his yearly long haul holiday? Through her activism, she has helped to push through plastic bag and bottle bans, and preserve a local woodland? How do we calculate this against her personal carbon footprint?
  1. People are, on average, fairly likely to have beliefs/follow lifestyles broadly similar to their parents (isn't this why some organised religions encourage people to have many children?)
The only people who are likely to be persuaded not to have kids for environmental reasons, are people who already care about the environment.

So let's say in both country A and B, 50% of couples care about the environment deeply, 50% of them are climate change deniers.
In country A, all the environmentalist couples decide it is best not to have children. All the deniers go ahead and have 2 kids per couple.
When the next generation grows up and is making the decisions ALL of them are the children of parents who don't care for the environment.
In country B, all the couples have 2 children. The next generation has 50% offspring of environmentalists, and 50% of deniers.
Yes, country B does now have a bigger population - but is it not clear that it also stands a vastly greater chance of implementing policies and making the real societal changes necessary to preserve the environment?

Considering the above, is it not better for someone who cares about the environment to actually have children if they want to, and raise them as responsibly as possible?
(Note by responsibly I don't just mean they try to remember their reusable bags at the supermarket sometimes - I'm talking the parents making real effort in every area of their lives personally, and also being involved in activism/campaigning/politics to try and effect real change. Modeling this to their children and raising responsible caring people.)

I'm willing to hear counter arguments to this!! Genuinely interested in what people think.

OP posts:
Gin96 · 22/06/2019 16:34

I know we are a small island that’s why it makes no difference how many children we have. Please explain how one small island not having children will make any difference to the global population?

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 16:46

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MirriVan · 22/06/2019 16:48

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Gin96 · 22/06/2019 16:52

So that won’t make any difference to the overall world population numbers, not one bit

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 16:56

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MirriVan · 22/06/2019 16:58

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noodlenosefraggle · 22/06/2019 17:05

All Western nations use up more resources by existing than people in developing cou tries. We produce more waste which we transport out of sight to the developing world. Our old people live longer. Of course we make a difference!

LaminateAnecdotes · 22/06/2019 17:14

We produce more waste which we transport out of sight to the developing world.

For how much longer ?

www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/world/asia/asia-trash.html

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 17:16

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Threesoups · 22/06/2019 17:22

Ffs. You know what's bad for the environment? Coal fired power stations. Deforestation. Consumer goods with built in obsolescence. Global supply chains.

You know what's bad for life expectancy and quality of life? Unequal distribution of resources. Corporate and government corruption. War.

You know how much impact family size in the UK has (which incidentally has been a reducing number for several generations) on this? Fuck all.

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 17:44

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MirriVan · 22/06/2019 17:46

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MirriVan · 22/06/2019 17:49

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SalrycLuxx · 22/06/2019 17:55

We need environmental rationing.

Totally agree. And there needs to be a massive mark up on virgin plastic, a massive investment in proper recycling within the UK, and a shift to cycling and walking as the main daily transport.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/06/2019 17:59

SalrycLuxx

and a shift to cycling and walking as the main daily transport.

I'm going to take the leap of faith and say that you don't live rurally.

Threesoups · 22/06/2019 18:05

If those things weren't in existence there wouldn't be anyone using them, however many children they had. Campaign for policy change maybe rather than telling people not to have kids.

MirriVan · 22/06/2019 18:09

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Threesoups · 22/06/2019 18:12

I live in a city and I wouldn't cycle to work either. Too dangerous and unreliable. I did used to, but cycle paths are patchy and can't be extended due to, well, the city getting in the way. Lost count of the number of arsehole drivers who "didn't see me", came off a few times because of it. A monthly bus ticket costs £70 and that doesn't cover all buses either just the main operator plus the service is unreliable with frequent timetable changes meaning getting to work on time is not guaranteed. So even in cities there's a lot more to be done to persuade people out of their cars.

swissmilk · 22/06/2019 18:18

@gin96 you need to go to school or read some books or something. Literally everything you've written is a load of crap and you don't grasp basic concepts.

Threesoups · 22/06/2019 18:21

Re campaigning for policy change re unequal distribution yeah I've worked on the ground for a global NGO, did my bit at local level, fed back to wider campaigns which were submitted at government level etc, engaged in local campaigns opposed to corrupt corps, now work for a different charity that distributes funds to needy (I'm the one that authorises distribution LOL) so yeah, doing what I can. It's the big players that you need to be going after imo, not your neighbours and how many kids they have.

BoneyBackJefferson · 22/06/2019 18:27

Threesoups

So even in cities there's a lot more to be done to persuade people out of their cars.

Not really, I think that it would be fairly simple.

Instead of continuing to increase the price of cars, decrease the amount that you have to pay for public transport and increase the efficiency.

The hardest part is getting politicians to realise that.

Threesoups · 22/06/2019 18:33

Yeah but now that we've moved to a laissez-faire environment wrt service provision it's hard to turn that behemoth around. I agree that it should be simple - just run the fucking buses on time ffs - but now that the providers are motivated by profit and no one's overseeing them it isn't going to happen. Councils don't have the money, national government doesn't give a shit and anyone making policy decisions doesn't understand the day to day stress of trying to get to work on time via a substandard expensive transport system because they all drive.

SalrycLuxx · 22/06/2019 19:45

Semi rurally actually. Not rurally because I didn’t want to own a car because they’re bad for the environment.

And yes, yes. People who live in the sticks need a car/motorbike. But frankly, only to get them to the edge of (current hypothetical) town. They could walk/cycle/bus within the town.

Im not advocating banning all cars ever. I am however in favour of severely restricting usage in population centres.

Tilikum · 22/06/2019 21:30

MirriVan

Fewer people being born in the UK means fewer people ON THE EARTH!!
Because the UK is PART OF THE EARTH!

Maths is hard Mirri! Grin

Mysterian · 22/06/2019 21:36

Because the UK is PART OF THE EARTH!

Unless we vote to leave...