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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?

303 replies

Thewindblows · 18/06/2019 19:34

dons hard hat

Now hear me out!

Every time I hear this argument I think;

  1. It seems to assume that a human being's impact on the environment is equal to the sum total of their carbon footprint. Isn't life a lot more complex than that? Don't we all influence each other?
To take an obvious example - David Attenburgh has probably taken a SHITLOAD of international flights in his life, his carbon footprint must be massive. But would anyone say the world would have been better off without him, when through his work he has brought environmental awareness to millions? Of course the vast majority of us are not David Attenburgh. But let's say Jean Smith from down the road also cares lots about the environment, and tries her best to reduce her consumption and do her bit. Now, OF COURSE she is personally using more of the world's resources than if she didn't exist at all. But what if she has, through her lifestyle and activism, encouraged 5 of her friends to use cloth nappies and second hand clothes? Encouraged a few more to reduce their daily plastic use? Made one friend rethink his yearly long haul holiday? Through her activism, she has helped to push through plastic bag and bottle bans, and preserve a local woodland? How do we calculate this against her personal carbon footprint?
  1. People are, on average, fairly likely to have beliefs/follow lifestyles broadly similar to their parents (isn't this why some organised religions encourage people to have many children?)
The only people who are likely to be persuaded not to have kids for environmental reasons, are people who already care about the environment.

So let's say in both country A and B, 50% of couples care about the environment deeply, 50% of them are climate change deniers.
In country A, all the environmentalist couples decide it is best not to have children. All the deniers go ahead and have 2 kids per couple.
When the next generation grows up and is making the decisions ALL of them are the children of parents who don't care for the environment.
In country B, all the couples have 2 children. The next generation has 50% offspring of environmentalists, and 50% of deniers.
Yes, country B does now have a bigger population - but is it not clear that it also stands a vastly greater chance of implementing policies and making the real societal changes necessary to preserve the environment?

Considering the above, is it not better for someone who cares about the environment to actually have children if they want to, and raise them as responsibly as possible?
(Note by responsibly I don't just mean they try to remember their reusable bags at the supermarket sometimes - I'm talking the parents making real effort in every area of their lives personally, and also being involved in activism/campaigning/politics to try and effect real change. Modeling this to their children and raising responsible caring people.)

I'm willing to hear counter arguments to this!! Genuinely interested in what people think.

OP posts:
AnAC12UCOinanOCG · 20/06/2019 15:07

Yes, I read the quote. How does that support your statement that the world is not overpopulated?

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 15:14

How does that support your statement that the world is not overpopulated?

They can still get an Ocado delivery next day ?

AlaskanOilBaron · 20/06/2019 15:15

Tiger I would dismiss out of hand any ‘scientific’ organisation having a pro-life affiliation out of hand. I suggest you should do the same.

I also can’t figure out what your point is.

AnAC12UCOinanOCG · 20/06/2019 15:23

They can still get an Ocado delivery next day ?

And we'll be able to get same day deliveries after 2040! I'm a convert!

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 15:24

Have a watch of our planet on Netflix and see if you think the world is not overpopulated.

A lot of the trouble arises from the arrogance of humans we view it as aright to take other species and their habitat to grow our own species - worse than that it’s nit just to fulfill our needs it’s to fulfill our ever increasing wants. It’s throwing the balance of our world essential to maintain life as we know it (I’m talking life here not lifestyles)

We need to drastically reduce numbers of humans, the only ethical way to do this is to reduce the numbers being born.

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 15:25

How do you define “overpopulation”?

How does a dictionary define in ?

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 15:53

I should think overpopulation would be defined as the point where population reaches such a level that it is not possible to maintain that species within the habitat for a theoretically indefinite time.

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 16:01

I should think overpopulation would be defined as the point where population reaches such a level that it is not possible to maintain that species within the habitat for a theoretically indefinite time.

(looks at world around me)

Yup, sounds about right.

Actually it's probably a little more nuanced than that. Several organisms have lifecycles where they boom-bust in order to maximise the chances of the species continuing. And it's the competition for increasingly scare resources that drives natural selection.

MirriVan · 20/06/2019 16:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 16:10

Laminate - can’t see the human race would work that way, we have developed societies which don’t favour natural selection due to the philanthropy of our species. Natural selection is going to have to be replaced by intelligent selection.

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 16:10

A lot of the trouble arises from the arrogance of humans we view it as aright to take other species and their habitat to grow our own species - worse than that it’s not just to fulfill our needs it’s to fulfill our ever increasing wants.

Why would we not think it's our "right" ? Ants farm aphids, and there are some delightful fungi that utilise ants for their own end.

Who knows; maybe human behaviour is being driven by some organism that needs more CO₂ ... getting into our minds and driving us to behaviour that is damaging to us, but beneficial to it ?

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 16:28

I think there’s a fine line though of utilising other species to fulfill needs like food for survival and decimating habitats to fulfil our wants (usually more profits)

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 16:38

I think there’s a fine line though of utilising other species to fulfill needs like food for survival and decimating habitats to fulfil our wants (usually more profits)

Oh, certainly. But in the absence of a higher being, who gets to decide where the line goes ?

It's all self-limiting anyway. If humans trash the environment so much there's no food, no clean water, toxins everywhere and a collapse of available biomass then a lot of us will simply die. Hungry, ravaged by illness, disease and poison and probably not really giving much thought to having children. It's not as if it hasn't happened before in our history.

All of that said, it seems most peoples attitude to the future is not unlike being in an airliner where the engines have failed and arguing over the free drinks in first class.

Gin96 · 20/06/2019 16:50

So we all have 1 child or no children in the UK but say immigration goes up to 500,000 a year and the population is still rising, what have you achieved? Absolutely nothing!

tigertiger10 · 20/06/2019 16:52

Interested to see the scientific proof that overpopulation is already a problem. If you think it’s a future problem, you’ll have trouble proving scientific evidence for that. Crystal balls would be more apt.

And if people are talking about legislating family sizes, why choose that as a tool? Why not ban owning pets? Or flying? Or importing food? I don’t own pets, fly or buy food from outside Europe — for starters. All these things are achievable and a lot more palatable than stopping people from having children. How would that be achieved anyway? Forced sterilisation? Forced abortion? I’ll defend my bodily autonomy thanks.

M3lon · 20/06/2019 16:52

gin its the global population that really matters, not uk population...

Anyone having fewer kids is helping!

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 16:54

gin its the global population that really matters, not uk population

It's ironic how much there is of "it's all about me" when discussing the whole planet.

Gin96 · 20/06/2019 16:55

But us not having a few children here won’t make any difference, it’s Africa who will have the biggest growth population and that won’t stop.

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 16:59

I guess a lot of us are trying to get those engines started again and we really don’t need to keep loading the plane up with more people whilst we’re doing so on the vague off chance one of them turns out to be an aircraft mechanic

Lifeover · 20/06/2019 17:02

But no one is stopping people having kids but limiting them to one or two. We are looking at the survival of the species as a whole.

Overpopulation is an issue, look at the overfishing, the deforestation

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 17:03

But us not having a few children here won’t make any difference, it’s Africa who will have the biggest growth population and that won’t stop.

It will when the food and/or water runs out. Even sooner if a pandemic should turn up.

Gin96 · 20/06/2019 17:18

yes I agree but us having less children here won’t make a blind bit of difference it will happen anyway because growth population is so huge in the rest of the world

LaminateAnecdotes · 20/06/2019 17:29

yes I agree but us having less children here won’t make a blind bit of difference it will happen anyway because growth population is so huge in the rest of the world

Pretty much sums up the "what's the point" cynicism currently facing any attempts to rein in our behaviour.

Gin96 · 20/06/2019 17:40

All that will happen is we will be replaced by immigration because we are told we need this for our economy so you won’t make a difference until immigration is slowed down

drspouse · 20/06/2019 17:45

If what you say is true, you should not have children, but devote your life to teaching existing children how to reduce both their own and their parents' carbon footprint.

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