FGM on year 5 school curriculum

[MermaidMummy]

I'm really not sure if I'm being unreasonable, so I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.
My 9-year-old's class has just started learning about puberty. We have been told that the next lesson will cover terminology such as erection, sperm and female genital mutilation.
I just don't get why they need to learn about FGM at 9 years old. Some of these kids are very "young" for their age, and mine is very sensitive (won't watch the news in case an "adult topic" crops up).
What is the rationale for teaching this in year 5? There is nobody in the class from a cultural background likely to carry out FGM, but even if there was, would a 9 year-old know that it might happen to them and inform a teacher (if that is the rationale for teaching it)? From what I have read they aren't told anything about it in advance. If it has already happened to them, what is the benefit of bringing it up in class? Couldn't it be damaging and stigmatising?

Schools don't educate about rape specifically, at 9 do they?

I thought it was pants rule, private places, of someone says no (about anything) then you stop, type stuff.

Not specifics about rape as a named specific act, is that not right?

Of course lots of children will be sexually abused before and after age 9.

But I think it's discussed in more generic terms, isn't it?

I am still aghast at the idea that 9yo who play with soft toys lack resilience, this thread seems a bit polarised and with some genuinely odd ideas around the place.

So does the state make a better parent, or the individual? How much input should we actually have into our children’s lives? @IsabellaLinton

It's obvious that in some cases the state make better parents than the individual, hence why some kids are removed from parents.

MenuPlant
Yes.
Staff are trained in age appropriate explanations appropriate for the age of the children.
We also get advice and guidance as part of pastoral training on how to handle difficult questions in an appropriate way.

There has to be an understanding that people trained to work with specific age ranges are trained to handle the material appropriately.

For example, some primaries cover Romeo and Juliet, but they don't talk about how the play opens with gang violence and jokes about raping the opposite side's women and taking their virginity. I personally wouldn't cover the play in primary but I trust the judgement of colleagues who are trained in an age range.

Same for PSHE.

@woodhill - here’s the report for one of the US cases

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mercury.postlight.com/amp%3furl=news.trust.org/item/20190401142012-hf8eu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mercury.postlight.com/amp%3furl=news.trust.org/item/20190401142012-hf8eu

Whether or not the state makes a better parent is irrelevant. It frequently makes a better educator.

Lola is rape covered as a named act with an outline of what it means, at age 9 in UK primaries?

I am fairly sure it isn't.

MenuPlant
As I don't teach key stage 2 I couldn't say either way on a specific term. Rape as a term is used at ks3.

You asked if sexual abuse is covered in general terms. My understanding is that issues linked to sexual abuse are covered through approaches such as the pants talk and nobody having the right to touch your private areas. Primary staff teach in an age appropriate way. If anyone was concerned about their school using a specific term then do as the OP did and ask the question about how it is covered.

So many people in this thread talking utter shite.

Noone has any idea what an age appropriate way of discussing FGM with 8 year olds might be.

Schools are absolutely not requited to teach it and thousands don't.

Lots of absurd ideas about 8 year old girls having to be aware of something which will almost certainly not impact any of their lives.

If teachers suspect FGM then they should alert the authorities. As i am sure they would.

So tbh this is all moot.

Hear hear

Thanks Jelly

Hate the way any religion is used as an excuse to justify this. Truly awful

Ealing council are running a three year awareness programme and their only advice for primary is rhe nspcc PANTS rule. All their awareness training is for ks3 and 4.

So even this funded project doesn't recommend discussion in ks2.

So all the frothing posters calling the OP and others Nimbys and accusing them of having their head in the sand might want to do the same for ealing council

It does appear from that link, that schools who are part of the FGM project, or those that have done work with parents and staff, can access FGM specific lessons from years 3-6. It needs a log in to see what that consists of but I assume an FGM specific lesson addresses FGM. So age 8-9. It appears they are addressing it head on, beyond Pants, to be applauded.

Fibbke I did have to explain fgm to my DD1 when she was 8 as there was a poster on the train about it.

It was not easy, the bit I struggled most with was why.

I also told her that it was in certain communities, it's pointless to have girls thinking that this is a widespread thing for girls in general, when it isn't.

I would have thought that the pants rule covers it tbh for this age, stuff about secrets and so on the stuff I think they get. Naming specific practices and crimes eg rape fgm incest grooming sexual exploitation etc with outlines is too much for this age I'm not singling out fgm.

FGM is in fact only covered at ks3 at the moment. I see a lot of posters want it moving to ks2 named as a specific thing and with outline which is out of step with the way other things are dealt with.

The posters who think that the parents have been overly protective if their child would be upset by facts of fgm at 9 are out of step though I think, with the best comment being that 9yo who play with soft toys lack resilience. 9 is still v young. Lots of 9yo girls and boys are still playing with toys at that age.

And yes lots of children have lots of bad stuff happen all the time, but I don't see why the generalised pants for stuff is OK for all but this one topic where specific info needs to be given.

I am also really against the idea of letting kids think this is a general risk for girls in UK it is not, irrespective of what happens in some extreme USA christian sects.

Baby you could start a petition to get it moved to ks2 across the board I think that is the way to do it. Lots of posters here would sign.

Menu There are plenty of campaigners way more knowledgeable than me about the issue. I simply have the skills to advocate before the Courts. I have spent time with domestic abuse services and the Red Cross in the cities that I work in and have been horrified at what I learned. I strongly believe that education, and particularly the education of boys is the way to go. For now my part is to never allow a woman or child at risk of FGM (or forced marriage) out of my office without a plan of action, regardless of whether or not I will get paid for working on the case.

Noone has any idea what an age appropriate way of discussing FGM with 8 year olds might be.
Or we trust that those trained to work in a particular age range know their contexts will make the choice that is right for their contexts and pupils and act accordingly.

How hard is it to understand that people in different professional lines of work might just have the ability to make decisions based on their situation?

I don't know how on earth EYFS and ks1 teachers begin to teach reading, but I trust they do it appropriately for the age of their pupils. I haven't a clue how people talk jumpers down to prevent a suicide, but people are trained in it. Equally there are areas and issues I'm stronger in than colleagues and vice versa.

I wouldn't expect a KS1 teacher to weigh in telling me their personal opinion of ks3/4 PSHE matters more than our staff body's professional judgement.
Equally I wouldn't be so arrogant to decide my personal opinion or feeling uncomfortable on a matter has greater weight than what colleagues from different agencies and phases are telling us.

Some tough topics we've been trained on for PSHE only for the decision to be made that it's best the police come in to deliver the sessions. Fair enough. They were better placed than us to answer the nuanced questions of 14 year olds.

It comes down to whether we believe an unqualified person's personal opinion has more weight in an area than those trained in it and whether we accept that sometimes 'but this is what I think... i have decided it's right/wrong... But you don't agree with me so you're wrong.. But i think...' is just pigeon chess.

Lola this topic is currently ks3 so teachers are presumably not trained around delivering teaching on it to children outside of areas where there are signifinant numbers of girls from certain communities.

The just trust the teachers thing is one I'm not sure about, I would want to know

What is taught and how much detail
Is it presented as certain communities, or children given the idea it could happen to any UK girl (as some posters would like)
How is the difference between fgm (illegal) and circumcision (legal) handled especially with the boys, this is important I think and not sure how it would be tackled
The explanation as to why it is done as there needs to be one or a lot of parents are going to get questions that they have no idea where to even start esp with a 9yo

I don't like the idea that parents who have questions about this are in the wrong somehow and the idea that 9yo should be able to deal with the reality of fgm and what it involves even in outline or they lack resilience really off tbh

MenuPlant
In secondary schools that are 90+% white then it probably wouldn't be done as a full PSHE lesson, but might be raised in with other related topics. We deliver main PSHE to whole classes rather than 'we think these 30 out of 200 need...'
Beyond the statutory, schools set their PSHE curriculum to account for contexts so schools with a higher at risk group may cover it more as a tailored topic.

In terms of your questions, I've never seen it presented as 'everyone is equally at risk', but there has been staff training explaining how hidden bias and assumption might affect our views (e.g. one common myth is it's a religious thing but t's actually more cultural so a Christian in a particular culture may be more at risk than a Muslim in another so some may be at risk who you might not first think). Regarding circumcision, usually we facilitate a debate at secondary as students are older so as staff we present the legal positions and then students ask questions and debate. As with any controversial issue, it's fairly common for there to be disagreements or students querying fairness/equality.

I don't think parents who ask questions are wrong and a polite query to the school is more than reasonable. I do think knee jerk 'I don't agree with X therefore it is wrong and I know best so have decided my personal view trumps any professional judgement' or 'not relevant to my child so I don't see why they should learn...' are unhelpful approaches.

This thread is not about what happens now though.

This thread is about fgm being moved from ks3 to ks2, specially 9yo, taught blanket across the country.

Different views from different posters but a fairly sizable contingent think that it should be generalised and not say certain communities as that would stigmatise girls from those communities.

Some have implied that if 9yo get upset about this topic then it's a sign of over protection and poor parenting which I think is ridiculous.

Poster who said 9yo who play with soft toys lack resilience was a high point.

It is totally different doing this with 9yo than secondary school, and most posters on the thread say it should be covered nationally age 9.

When I told my 8yo she was, I think the idea things like that could exist had not occurred to her. She wanted to know why. Saying its a tool of patriarchal control of women is hard to explain at 8! But they will need an explanation and it needs to be the truth in some form or another.

My 6yo was there as well she looked a bit confused by didn't really know what it was about, 8yo had a lot of questions. I tried my best to answer them.

That is the age for the "cutting season" in school holidays. The more awareness of this, the better. The system is for ALL pupils

Which system?

menu
The OP didn't ask about national changes to make the topic compulsory at ks2.

She asked about her child's school deciding to cover it.

They're within their rights to cover whatever they deem appropriate for their cohort and context.

One school I worked at spent most of the PSHE time on extreme ideologies exploring the problems of white nationalism, the EDL etc because that best fitted the challenges facing that school and that community (very white area, almost no diversity, people were saying the town was being taken over by Muslims because there's a Chinese family running a take away and a non white family on the estate). Another school might slant their PSHE differently.

Different people will have different opinions on when they think topics should ideally be taught. Some will have their personal feelings and an awareness of the relevant professional issues as well. I don't have a strong feeling either way on there being a set age for topics, but think it's right and proper that schools are allowed to exercise their professional judgement based on their knowledge of their communities and students.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. It is not the job of minors to safeguard other minors. That in itself is a abusive. Part of allowing children to be children is protecting them from horrific information until their underdeveloped brains are developed and resilient enough to process the information without causing emotional harm. 9 is not that age.