To think there are a lot of people out there who have no grasp of WW2 history

[Stripyseagulls]

My grandfather fought in WW2 and I have visited the Normandy sites & it’s extraordinary how moving they are.

Today on Facebook/Twitter I have seen loads of really disturbing posts saying stuff like ‘our war hero’s didn’t fight world war 2 to live in a country full of muslim/ foreigners’ etc. Really really disturbing and horrible.

Aibu to think people don’t understand history and that the war was fought to defeat facism and these kinds of beliefs. Hitler didn’t start off gassing people- it was a long propaganda campaign against religious and ethnic groups that ended up with the holocaust.

Aibu to be disturbed by the lack of understanding of why the war was fought and what it was fought against. I find some of the attitudes in the UK today so troubling.

The old BBC series The World at War was brilliant and well worth a watch. It's long and harrowing and old but very good.

Totally agree-it is the "industry Standard" by which all WW2 documentaries are judged.

Just one minor pedantic point though, it was made by Thames Television, and shown on ITV, not the BBC (although they did have a distribution deal to sell it overseas).

I hadn't heard of Op BAGRATION until I moved to Kennington & saw a memorial at the IWM that led me down a rabbit hole.

"Much of what is taught in schools is biased towards British history" I've been told on another thread on education it's improving but my experience In the English education system is it was biased towards English history.

I come from a military family and all 4 grandparents served (bet many people didn't know women were conscripted too) by 1943 90% of single women were signed up.

One of my granpas served somewhere with Ghurkas, he was already in the army before the war even looked likely, so I was aware of their involvement, the other served in North Africa alongside Ethiopians. Relatives have emigrated to New Zealand and Canada and so I've learned a little of their involvement too.

One granny signed up fairly early, the pay and conditions were good at that point for a girl from the slums of glasgow. Potential career - a rare opportunity for working class women.

My ex's grandparents served too, with the exception of one gran who had a medical exemption iirc was type 1 diabetic. One granpa served in what was then Burma.

It's a vast topic to cover, I dip into it on occasion and learn something new every time, but it's shocking what some people mistakenly think.

"Communism kicked off the Cold War."

The communist revolution in Russia happened before WWII indeed before even the end of wwi! The Cold War didn't really take hold until after WWII. I'm no expert and I'm sure I'll be corrected but my understanding is it basically started as (and continued to be) a pissing contest between usa and Russia when the allied countries negotiated the division of countries as "spoils of war" almost after WWII. Usa felt threatened by russia's increasing acquisition of countries into the growing ussr (particularly obvious with the division of Germany itself) combined with communist ideology (the antithesis of capitalism on which usa is founded) and technological developments - particularly nuclear weapons. The term "Cold War" was I think coined by George Orwell in an essay about nuclear winter?

But USA and Russia didn't really work together in WWII just both happened to oppose nazi Germany.

"I seem to recall lots of irrelevant history, Romans, Vikings, how people lived 300 years ago." No history is irrelevant but it has to be contextualised.

We're still using roadways the Romans forged, mathematics the greeks and Egyptians formulated, geography informed by many wars and land grabs, we're still affected by the actions of tudors, stuarts etc - especially in relation to brexit!

"As well as Jews, he would have gone after anyone who was different; ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc. Not just in Germany and Poland but across Europe" erm... Glass houses he DID "go after" other minorities - Romany, mentally ill, gay, learning disabled, socialists, trade unionists, intellectuals that were speaking out...

@ sakura7 "I knew nothing about what happened in South East Asia until I went on holiday to Thailand"

I'm curious what age you are as I'm 46 and I grew up not only with the family anecdotes but also Tenko, (wouldn't be shown now for good reason) it ain't half hot mum, and war films every Sunday on tv (which I moaned about to my Shame but always ended up watching and finding interesting) like bridge on the river Kwai, sands of Iwo Jima, three came home...

"But yes, if my grandfather - a lifelong socialist, who campaigned against discrimination in all its forms - who also volunteered to fight fascism in WW2 could hear what you are saying he would feel beyond appalled that he fought in order for people like you to spout your thinly-veiled racist views in his name." Ditto both my granpas. Neither ever held with bigotry especially racism having been subjected to it themselves as Catholics.

It's a long time since I read it but AJP Taylor's'The Second World War: An Illustrated History is quite concise and accessible.

(Although I'm sure someone will come along and put me right on that)

I am not going to "put anyone right", as I have much respect for AJP, but he does present a somewhat controversial account of why Hitler came to power, and whilst there is much merit in his view that "The allies were to blame" because of the way they treated Germany after WW1 it is my personal view that he somewhat "over eggs the pudding" in putting this view across.

It was interesting today teaching a lesson that linked to D-Day with Year 7. The difference in knowledge was incredible.

Some pupils knew what D-Day was and has discussed it with parents.
Some knew the names of all the beaches
One pupil asked me about anti Semitism and the holocaust
One asked me about Brexit and fascism
Two or three thought only England fought against only Germany

Some thought Hitler was in charge for both world wars
A couple didn't know Europe was a continent
One asked what a Nazi was
Some had never heard of D-Day

I'm curious what age you are as I'm 46 and I grew up not only with the family anecdotes but also Tenko, (wouldn't be shown now for good reason)

Tenko has been repeated periodically on the "Drama" channel. I don't think it's currently being aired, but it has been within the last 6 months or so.

Stripy yes that’s exactly why I found the leave vote so depressing. It feels like the whole post war project of the unity of nations for peace and all that unimaginable pain and suffering that brought it about is being forgotten or somehow on purpose kicked over.

"Just one minor pedantic point though, it was made by Thames Television, and shown on ITV, not the BBC (although they did have a distribution deal to sell it overseas)." Thought it might have been but
CBA to check.

The old BBC series The World at War was brilliant and well worth a watch. It's long and harrowing and old but very good. I remember watching it as quite a young child on a Sunday afternoon. It should be compulsory viewing.

Glass houses he DID "go after" other minorities - Romany, mentally ill, gay, learning disabled, socialists, trade unionists, intellectuals that were speaking out...

Great post Graphista, someone was asking about books there are so many but here are some:

• Martin Sherman’s play Bent which was based on the book The Men with the Pink Triangle – pink triangles were what the Nazis allocated to gay men in the camps;

• brilliant memoir about racism under the Nazis Destined to witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany by Hans J. Massaquoi, and on the same topic a moving novel Half-Blood Blues by Esi Edugyan;

• India’s contribution on Britain’s behalf during WW2 is covered in The Raj at War by Yasmin Khan.

A reasonable general history might be something like Why the Allies Won by Richard J. Overy, there’s Ian Kershaw’s work on Hitler, Timothy Snyder Bloodlands which focuses on events leading up to and during the campaigns in Eastern Europe and on mass murder – harrowing but compulsive…

I read this thread and think it's sad. We are discussing WW2 but who actually knew that it was a direct result of WW1?
My DD does history GCSE, but WW1 is only mentioned briefly, before moving into the holocaust. As others have already mentioned, there is so much more to WW 2 in Europe there is Italy and Spain, the rise of communism afterwards ... all the ex British colonies like India and Burma, what about China & Japan ....
I can see why a country like Britain only wants to discuss certain aspects, but most of the British empire collapsed during or soon after.... all very important if you want to understand the world as it is today.

The old BBC series The World at War was brilliant and well worth a watch. It's long and harrowing and old but very good.
Another vote for The World at War. However, it only devotes about half an episode to the war in Asia (maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm not watching it all again to check: I watched it as a teenager and I've watched it twice since).

And Tenko, for all its flaws, was very well researched. Unlike the film Paradise Road, which did not impress me.

We didn't cover it at all in history at school.......well we skirted over it.

It angers me, it made me feel very ignorant so I chose to learn as an adult.

So until recently I couldn't have talked about the slow, propaganda and drip, drip of Hitler's campaign. I could have told you about crop rotations tho. And old farming methods. I dont think I'm that unusual sadly.

What has always intrigued me, is how are German children taught about this history? Their people fought for their country. Their leader (Hitler) was very sincere in his beliefs, and they were under his command. It's easy for us to simplify the War for our children (there was a bad man who wanted to rule all the countries and thought that only certain people should live. We fought to protect those countries so that everyone could be free) but how do you simplify it for German children? How do you maintain patriotism whilst acknowledging the part that Germany paid in the devastation of societies?

I’m posting this again because I didn’t indicate what it was. It’s the Second World War in colour.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zjTgMbkZcbM#fauxfullscreen

My father was a Surgeon Lieutenant in the Navy. He was on a destroyer on D-day. I was delighted to find footage of it in colour - but he would not watch it. I now realise that it was too painful for him.

Another vote for The World at War. However, it only devotes about half an episode to the war in Asia (maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm not watching it all again to check: I watched it as a teenager and I've watched it twice since)

You are being a little unfair. Out of the 26 episodes, each lasting 52 minutes (1 hour minus 8 minutes for adverts) there are 5 episodes devoted to the war is Asia, plus 1 episode about the USA's role in the War, which includes about 30 minutes of the war in the Pacific, and the final episode that is like an "overview", and includes about 20 mins about the Pacific and Japan.

@Lougle

They don't try to maintain patriotism. For a long time nationalism was frowned on in Germany. This is according to my German friend who was born in East Germany but was just a few years old when the wall came down.

Children are taught that Germany was at fault in the war, and when they're old enough to process it they are taught about how Hitler manipulated the public and how to look for the signs of it happening again. Germany had a major guilt complex for a long time.

Borntobequiet I watched some of the D-Day commemoration interviews today, and I couldn't help feeling that it was a bit exploitative. So many of the veterans were saying "I can't talk about it" or "I don't want to remember" and they were followed up with "Can you tell us anything you remember?"

Their problem was not that they couldn't remember. It was that it was all they could remember. They remembered too much.

Surely it isn't our right to share their memories when they have enough trouble with coping with them on their own?

But then, the youngest veteran there was 91 today, so I guess, fairly soon, there won't be any veterans left to ask

Sakura7 thank you. That's really helpful.

*I watched some of the D-Day commemoration interviews today, and I couldn't help feeling that it was a bit exploitative. So many of the veterans were saying "I can't talk about it" or "I don't want to remember" and they were followed up with "Can you tell usanythingyou remember?"

Their problem wasnotthat they couldn't remember. It was that it wasallthey could remember. They remembered too much.*

I thought similar. Yesterday at the commemorations in portsmouth they said there was a big screen to show footage for people to watch and veterans to remember what happened that day. I thought it was a poor choice of wording as it is clear they have not and will not forget what happened and possibly don't want to watch, remember or re-live those moments.

Lougle - it's actually taught very good during secondary school. It's taught in relation to the Versailles treaty and of course black Friday ... all events that gave rise to a certain person. (And we see something similar with Brexit at the moment. Hope Division and false Promises, a lot of Warning and nobody seems to listen or care!)
Don't forget, although it is "only" 75 years ago, the real culprits are actually dead, it's a chapter in the recent past. Something, subsequent generations should know about, but don't have responsibility for the actions of past generations. I know the British often think differently...
A very interesting period is the German post war period, the 50's & 60's because children did find out what their parents and grandparents really did during the war. They learned how they themselves where manipulated. There is some German literature that deals with this, some of it is read in schools. That silent conflict is far more interesting and difficult to grasp.

Thank you. I’ve found the world at war on YouTube so will try to educate myself.

Searching YouTube for it depressed me even further though-so much vapid stuff that just represents the worst of today’s world. Such a contrast to the stoicism of the veterans and the responsibilities they had to take on in their youth.

I remember the 50th anniversaries of D-Day and VE day while at secondary school. They did a lot to revive interest in WW2, and by association WW1. One of the difficulties is the sheer level of trauma and so much silence from the generations that were fighting. Many have opened up about it only in their advanced old age. The stiff upper lip culture has faded. The fading of war experiences from living memory and it's taken so many decades for veterans to be able to do much other than supress their memories.

For most pupils, KS3 History will be about 100 hours of learning time. Y9 often focuses on the World Wars. Y7 tends to be 1066 to the Tudors, Y8 tends to follow on through the English Civil War and into the Industrial Revolution. The 1960s is increasingly creeping into late Y9. You could spend the whole 1xhr per week for 3 years on WW1 & 2 and still have major gaps.

I wouldn't claim my knowledge is thorough. My school based knowledge went through WW1 and its aftermath, the League of Nations, the rise of Hitler, appeasement, and the Holocaust. It has been enhanced by documentaries (although I struggle with too much depth of military strategies), literature, fiction such as the Silver Sword and non-fiction such as Wild Swans (covers the Japanese occupation of China) and travelling around much of Europe including Warsaw and a visit to Auschwitz. Some of the knowledge is a bit piecemeal and not brilliantly joined up.

In family history, my Great-Grandfather was a broken man. He survived for a couple more decades but the war was a very significant factor in his premature death. His brother died as a Japanese prisoner of war. When my Great Grandma died, a letter emerged written by his friend detailing some of the experiences they had. They had made a pact to write to each other's families if necessary and possible. It was heartbreaking reading. The thought of it is making me well up, such unnecessary cruelty and suffering that humans can inflict upon others. My grandma and I sobbed for the young man we had never met, her a baby born shortly before he went to war, so proud to be an uncle, me born about 40 years later.

The wars were so complex and difficult to make sense of, it's not surprising so many people struggle. Let's face it, how much difficulty does the average British person have with the Northern Irish Troubles when the GFA was in the lifetime of the majority of adults.

Sinhue yes, I've often wondered how long does Germany keep apologising for its past? I can imagine post war German history is very fascinating. I might need to read some.

The World at War has been remastered and you can get in Sainsburys for £15.