My sons behaviour is breaking my heart

[mae33]

I lost my temper. my 23 year old has been with us for over 6 months, its been hard work. he came to stay after a nearly successful fatal suicide. its worse than you can imagine. he got the help he needed we fed him up, we encourage and supported, we worked closely with his crisis team he got better, he got a job, he lost the job, after 6 weeks, he won't get up he won't help out. we got him more help, he started to help out a bit, but won't get up it takes us 4 or 5 attempts, then another 2 hours to get him dressed, when he helps its so slow and poorly done its beyond frustrating. but we have made some progress and it keeps me going. however 3 weeks ago I needed a huge operation on my shoulder, right in the middle of a renovation of my business premises, they have to be completed for me to start working again in 4 weeks, so I can pay the mortgage. my son has put in minimum effort even after I begged for help and today I lost my temper, really lost it when he won't get out of bed and apparently everything is all my fault. I foolishly said get up and help or get up and move out. of course he left in tears and now I feel worried sick and beyond guilty. having a hard time reconciling my raging emotions.

Why do crisis team think he doesn't need meds? That makes no sense.

Probably because they're the professionals who have assessed him face to face and not over the internet.

I really feel for you OP, whether he is depressed or not it doesn't change how difficult it is for you, especially when you have your own health problems and you're trying to keep a roof over your head. Are there any carers organisations? (Carers uk is the British version, if NZ had one similar?) just so you can have some support from people who experience similar.

Think as you’re obviously struggling is there anywhere he can go stay a while so you can recharge?

How long was he like this before the 6 months?

I understand you just had surgery but you know what, your shoulder will heal up.

Your son came very close to killing himself.

He seems severely severely depressed and no, I don't believe any competent psych professional would tell you that your son is trying to manipulate you with suicide when he actually did try to commit suicide just a few months ago.

I don't think you fully understand how serious this is and you act like if he does x, y and z he should be all better now and you're angry and think he's taking the piss.

You're angry because he didn't visit you after your surgery.

Is he going to counselling and how often?

Something is very wrong but all I am hearing is poor me.

I think you need to learn more and understand how serious depression really is because you don't seem to get it.

Robin Williams and Anthony Bourdain managed to put on a happy face sometimes but battled with severe depression for years and eventually they put an end to their pain.

I’m with @RantyAunty
I can understand some element of frustration and would also struggle in your situation but you can’t compare depression in people - it is different in everyone. Some of your friends might be caring. That doesn’t mean all people with depression are. Some people shut down and are literally unable to care about those around them. It isn’t a choice, it’s s symptom of the illness.
I really don’t believe any true professional worth his salt would say that someone who made a serious attempt on their life is being manipulative.

I mean this kindly, you need to educate yourself more about depression and mh issues and perhaps try to find somewhere for your son to stay while you sort yourself out.

Honestly- his depression is way worse than your shoulder and renovation problems.
If you want people to care about you and support you, look elsewhere as it’s not something your son is capable of doing right now - and that’s fine.
Don’t give up on him - and apologise for your behaviour.

do the crisis team think he has a personality disorder? if so, can he get help for that?

As someone who is supporting a family member in a similar situation, you have my sympathy. It's mentally draining on the wider family.

Don't blame yourself for loosing your temper. It sounds like you need help too. Can you speak to counsellors about how you can support him without emotionally destroying yourself?

X

Sorry but people don’t try to just themselves randomly. He has mental health needs.

his team have said he's using suicide as a manipulation

then you need a new team. People don't try to kill themselves and almost succeed for effect. They do it because they're unwell.

I think you need to FORGET this obsession with getting him to "help" you. He's very unwell. Focus on getting him better and helping HIM not the other way round.

You have my sympathy. It can sometimes be very hard for people with depression to empathise with others.
And while it is hell for them, I'm sure, it is also bloody awful for their families.
My husband was depressed. He was fine with his friends, the life and soul of the party, but the minute he came home, it was like he flipped a switch. Which was the real him? I have no idea, but I suspect it was the angry, sulky, lazy person I got at home.
I have no suggestions, unfortunately, because at the end of the day I left my husband, and you can't leave your son.
But I don't think that you just have to tolerate his behaviour. I definitely would look into alternative care teams. the one time my husband consented to take medication, it was like he suddenly came out from behind a cloud. It was marvellous. The whole family noticed. He noticed, too, and promptly stopped taking the medication because he 'didn't like taking tablets'. The truth was, I suspect, that he got a measure of satisfaction in being miserable and making everyone else miserable too.
Perhaps you should start placing limits on the amount of support you can give. Let him know that you love him but you are not going to spend 2 hours everyday persuading him to get out of bed. Could you employ someone to do that? I'd bet he would leap out of bed for a stranger because of the embarrassment factor and because there is no mileage to be gained in torturing someone who has no vested interest in you.
He is torturing you, and he is doing it deliberately. My ExH admitted, in later years, that he knew exactly what he was doing and just how bloody frustrating he was being, but took pleasure in making us all as miserable as he was.
Some PP are suggesting that you are being selfish. I suspect that you have been too unselfish and he is taking advantage of that. Sometimes depression can make you cruel.
The depression is not his fault, but he will be aware of what he is doing, and he will be able to take responsibility for his life. He just doesn't want to.
Go back to the care team. Tell them he needs medication and that you have had enough.
Good luck

the second working is mentioned he's depressed, the second fun is mentioned he's fine

mae33 this is not something that can continue in this way. I had a neighbor who I would have coffee with after work. She was being treated for a mental illness and on meds. She quoted her psychologist who said 'mental illness is not an excuse for bad behaviour.' She lived by that statement and even though she struggled with her illness she continued to put in the effort.

Your son does need recovery time, support as you and the rest of his family are giving him and professional support as he is receiving. But he has to want to make an effort too otherwise he won't make progress. You also need support. You've had surgery and your body needs rest and recuperation. Your needs are just as important as his and he should at least try to understand that.

his team have said he's using suicide as a manipulation

Are you absolutely sure? Because people just don't do that, and it indicates a breathtaking lack of understanding, empathy and compassion to even hint at that. I'm also with Ranty - this does sound very "me me me". Supporting a relative who has such profound mh issues is so hard. Perhaps you aren't in the best position to be doing this.

*NerrSnerr

Why do crisis team think he doesn't need meds? That makes no sense.

Probably because they're the professionals who have assessed him face to face and not over the internet.*

This.

Think some people are being hard on op, she is entitled to vent and be stressed and say she is not coping too, no one can be perfect and take all the negativity and stress and strain forever! As pp poster stated mental illness is not an excuse for bad behaviour.

Well maybe it would be better for him to go into specialised care. They can work with him and you can get a break from him.

He’s behaving like a depressed person. When you’re in it, you can’t ‘shake it off’, ‘snap out of it’ or whatever other people want you to do.
OP, start believing him.

mae33 I think some people are giving you a hard time on this thread and most of it comes down to their own assumptions about your son and you. Their assumptions come from their own thoughts and personal opinions, not from observations of you and your son.

Fwiw I have come across medical professionals who advised me an exp was using suicide attempt and threats to manipulate me. So, I believe you that professional psychologists and mental health team could say this to you. I'm not personally there in your situation with your son so I am not prepared to say whether they are right or wrong.

However, I will emphasize that being mentally ill is not a free pass to take advantage of other people or to treat other people carelessly. And even if his depression is a contributing factor in not taking personal responsibility it doesn't mean the behavior should go on unchallenged. A free pass to do as he likes will not help him rather it will stunt him and his recovery. But then as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I hope you find the support you need. Being physically impaired from injury or surgery is not a minor or trivial thing and you can't be expected to pick up after somebody else when your body needs to recover. You can't be expected to sacrifice and sabotage your own recovery. Shoulder injuries can be very complicated, have long recovery and can end up being permanently impinged causing permanent restrictions to your range of movement if you aren't careful. So please look after yourself too.

Well maybe it would be better for him to go into specialised care

What specialised care do you propose? Who should pay the £1000s a month this would cost?

Yy @hazell42 and @Oceanbliss

OP, you're allowed to reach the end of your tether and put yourself first. You really are. Can he go into some kind of care?

People get very, very touchy about the word depression, especially here because many on Mumsnet have suffered it (me included).

There's an assumption that a suicide attempt always signals utter desperation in every single case (it doesn't).

There's this idea that the person with it cannot ever be questioned, doubted or criticised ever again (which again isn't true).

And there's the idea that anyone who dares to question any of this is just wrong automatically.

The problem is that "depression" is such a vague diagnosis and it looks different in everyone. Sufferers are not always lovely saints to begin with, there are misdiagnoses with personality disorders, and then there are some who play on it and use it as an excuse (yes, manipulative arseholes do exist in real life).

Whatever's going on with your son though, you're a human too, with needs of your own. I bet you don't judge your other son for putting boundaries up, you can too. You're allowed to look after yourself.

Some amateur armchair psychologists are giving you a very hard time here which is awful when you have clearly tried so hard to help your ADULT son.

You've had major surgery, that in itself can cause you low mood but couple that with caring for and being abused by someone who you need a different type of relationship with, and it's going to be incredibly difficult to cope with.

I'm sure you are well educated on depression and personality disorders, other psychiatric disorders and asd but knowing the theory and living every day with it are two totally different things

I think some of these posters need to walk a mile in your shoes before criticising

Well done for trying your best.....now you need to seek alternative arrangements for your son....you can not carry on like this.....your son sees you as a soft touch and you need to speak to his crisis team and they need to find a way of helping him in a mental health unit somewhere. You are at breaking point here and you need to put yourself first, you should not be putting up with this it's beyond your remit as his mother he needs professional help. PLEASE contact them asap and get the help your son needs now.

I think some of these posters need to walk a mile in your shoes before criticising

I completely agree with this.

It is also really not helpful to be diagnosing people over the internet. No one on this thread knows it the OP's son has depression , any other mental disorder and they certainly do not know what he wanted to end his life. Caring for someone is really hard and all consuming and just because he may be unwell doesn't mean he can't be nice to his mum, and doesn't mean he gets to opt out of helping her at all.

Some pps have really stuck the boot in. I wonder if they have been depressed themselves but either not lived with a depressed person, or were just people who struggled to do their best through depression and can't imagine anyone who is both depressed AND being an arse. But it's entirely possible.

Op it sounds like your eldest son and you have pushed as hard as you can. Have you spoken to any of his team to express that you are at the limit of your caring ability and / or that he is now at risk of being made homeless? Does he fully understand this?

You're not going to be able to help him if you end up unable to work and pay the mortgage, and it sounds like his brothers are also at the end of their tether.

My DH had a severe physical illness followed by severe depression, our marriage easily weathered the physical illness even when it was grim, but depression nearly broke us. It's very hard to support someone who treats you badly and is like living with a Dementor. In the end my husband accepted that he needed strong medication, it's not been ideal but did take him back from the brink I hope you can find some support for yourself and if needs be, set more loving limits for your son.

If they're saying he doesn't need medication (or more likely they're saying it won't help) and that suicide attempts are manipulation, do they believe he has a Personality Disorder?
I'd ask them if they think this is the case, ask again for a diagnosis.

I have sent you a PM.

I really hope the OP comes back to see that not everyone has just attacked her on this.