To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Isabella so are you saying that because you've never experienced racism in the UK there is no racism in the UK?

That is nonsense.

I'm not sure that multiculturalism as a thing has really worked. London is made up of a lot of different ghettos, really. Where I live in zone 2 there is very little in the way of a Hindu/Indian population. Where I grew up in zone 5, there has long been a substantial Indian community. People gravitate to familiarity - who can blame them if you've just landed in a new city.

I teach 4 and 5 year olds who have been born and raised in England who barely speak a word of English.

Teachers of all people should encourage bilingualism. You of all people see first hand how quickly children that age learn a language. Recently on another thread I got torn to shreds for saying I only speak my native tongue to my 2 year old. Just a few weeks after getting a nanny, she can communicate her basic needs. I think she'll integrate just fine.
Britain desperately needs people who speak more than one language, especially after brexit makes everything more difficult for everyone. It'll be an essential skill. Do we want to compete globally or shrivel away?

What the fuck do the English expect other than a multicultural capital city for their colonialism history?! It really astounds me how bloody ignorant some people can be. READ UP ON YOUR OWN HISTORY.

But God forbid you fly your ENGLISH flag and you're a xenophobic, bigoted, racist little Englander!

This saddens me. It shouldn’t be that way. During the World Cup it was nice to see people flying their flags with pride. It seems the only time it’s appropriate to display it. It’s a bit like St. George’s day - we never make mention of it, yet we can all enjoy and appreciate St. Patrick’s day or Burns Night.

God forbid you fly your ENGLISH flag and you're a xenophobic, bigoted, racist little Englander!
I think you'd better have a word with the families in the area of London I used to live in, then. Can't remember which football tournament it was but parents born in Nigeria or Ghana, kids with England flag face painting. Oops.

@diaduittoyou

I’m a historian, I’ve done plenty of reading. Are you suggesting that due to Britain’s colonial past, any difficulties British people nowadays experience are their just deserts? Why should our colonial past now obligate is to accept that anyone can or should live here, regardless of the values or cultural norms they hold which may differ radically from our own?

Isabella and crazy if we were at primary school, I'd be asking if we could sit next to each other at lunch

As soon as I read this story I knew there would be a bunch of hand wringing pseudo liberals on mumsnet crying racist.

I think there is a lack on intergrantion in many multicultural cities, people might be living in that city from all over but tend to recreate pockets of the country of origin. I love in Birmingham and whole areas of the city have basically become pockets of certain ethnicities there is not a lot of intergration.

Some people like living in places where they don’t want lots of differences, just as say the Pakistani imigrants and their descendants like to live in certain areas, with ships catering to their needs, places of worship, schools etc, white British are also allowed to enjoy the same, where social norms, cultures, history etc are shared.

Just because you don’t want to spend everyday immersed in different cultures and prefer your own, doesn’t make you racist, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be immersed in your own culture on a daily basis

Songs well it's great for your child she has a nanny so she is picking up the language before school . The children I'm speaking about don't have nannies to speak English to them before they come to school, they have parents who don't use any at all, which also means they probably don't have the language which is affecting their integration.

And theres nothing wrong Iboogy with wanting people around you that you can identify with, whether that be colour, language or other aspects. No one is saying they only want people just like themselves around, they're saying (like I am) that they would like a more balanced mix and not to be completely displaced. We are entitled to feel this way!

What this thread shows is that a lot of white English people really love being around other white English people well, erm, that just proves the point being made doesn't it?

It it only offensive if white people do it. It's understandable if non white people do it!

READ UP ON YOUR OWN HISTORY. Yes, sweety. That would be when we colonise other countries, not have them colonise us?!?!

Sorry. The heated postings from any angle are amusing.

But yes, basically. I am white, English and would like to be able to be that, say that, live close to tohers who are also that... cos that is my comfort zone. Yes, I live in a multi cutural, small, rural town where English is not often heard on the streets, yes I have always had friends, colleagues, bosses of different nationalities and cultures, yes I do talk with them about the differences (although I have had one extremely tenacious poster tell me that that in itself makes me racist).

That notwithstanding, I am not 'agin' any of them and none of it means I need to lose my own natinal pride, be ashamed for saying that out loud, etc.

Again, we need to be much more NON PC, stop pussyfooting around 'sensitive' issues and just see things for what they are, differences.

Iboogy and what is wrong with that? Not all of us seek out friendship based on ticking off a diversity box!

Curious so it really matters to you that they are white? You wouldn't think of me as English because I'm not white (though English, never lived elsewhere, only speak English etc)

About bilingualism - surely if you are born in England then your 'home' language is English, not the language of somewhere you may never have been, and which only your grandparents or great-grandparents spoke?

My great-grandma and grandma weren't born in England, but they grew up speaking their native language and English as a second language. But my mother was born in England and so was I. How would the language our elders spoke be considered our 'home' language or 'native language' when we've never even been to that country - our homeland is England.

kapeka "surely if you are born in England then your 'home' language is English, not the language of somewhere you may never have been"

thank you!!!!

There's a delicious irony in this discussion being in English ...

Would love to know the extent of your reading @IsabellaLinton if you can't understand the consequences of Britain's imperialism.

Despite its multi ethnic empire, Britain has never welcomed ethnic diversity. The British rulers in history spouted a rhetoric of inclusive imperial citizenship for the people of all Commonwealth countries but you only have to read some of the views on here to know that in reality there was little desire to promote integration. 1858 for example - Queen Victoria's proclamation to India that they were all now "British subjects". But don't dare ever try to live in Britain after our imperialism and history of invading over 90% of the world's countries destroys your own culture and leads to wars, eh? Oh no, England for the white English and all that.

Anyway, as an Irish woman who gets so thoroughly sick of the ignorance displayed time and time again on such threads, for my own sanity I'll bow out now.

surely if you are born in England then your 'home' language is English

No, surely your home language is whatever is spoken in the home?
Lots of families who live in England speak another language at home - for most of them this is their first language but some families try and raise their children bilingual even if it isn't their own first language they are using at home.
And then lots of other families use English at home out of convenience or conviction (as did my PIL) even though it's not the first language for one or both of them.
So the home language is "whatever you speak at home".

The community language is English.

While I don’t like to agree with him I kind of do.

I don’t think London’s level of multiculturalism is always a good thing. Far too much segregation in parts. I lived there briefly some years ago, in a not so affluent area and when I arrived I was shocked at the lack of English people. It was like being dropped into another continent altogether. It resembled a developing country. I wasn’t expecting that at all and found it quite sad actually. The state of the area and the lack of social cohesion that is.

I couldn’t wait to move!

Moving to England doesn't just make you English all of a sudden. If I moved to Spain tomorrow to live, I would still be an English person living in Spain and wouldn't suddenly be a Spanish person, even if I did speak Spanish in the neighbourhood. Just like a Spanish person coming to live in England isn't then suddenly English, they are still Spanish. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

Doesn’t he live abroad now himself? Kinda deems his status hypocritical at best.

It is English, British, European. It’s multicultural and wonderful. Very proud of our capital.

Despite its multi ethnic empire, Britain has never welcomed ethnic diversity. The British rulers in history spouted a rhetoric of inclusive imperial citizenship for the people of all Commonwealth countries but you only have to read some of the views on here to know that in reality there was little desire to promote integration. 1858 for example - Queen Victoria's proclamation to India that they were all now "British subjects". But don't dare ever try to live in Britain after our imperialism and history of invading over 90% of the world's countries destroys your own culture and leads to wars, eh? Oh no, England for the white English and all that.

The fact that there was no concept of limiting immigration until after WW2 seems to contradict that. Along with the aforementioned Tory Indian MP for Bethnal Green in 1895.

Ian Hislop presented a fascinating and surprising documentary on the history of immigration into Britain a few years ago. (It was to be repeated last week, but BBC "balance" thought it best kept hidden).

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08w2cvq

For what it's worth, the entire concept of "nationality" was much more fluid then. No passports for a start.

If I moved to Spain tomorrow to live, I would still be an English person living in Spain and wouldn't suddenly be a Spanish person, even if I did speak Spanish in the neighbourhood.

Which is highly unlikely ...

Just thinking... I have a mixed race friend - one parent white British with English heritage and the other black British with Jamaican heritage - extended family on this side, some are in England and some still live in Jamaica.

My friend (although he acknowledges the Jamaican ancestry) does not consider himself in any way ''Jamaican'' or ''half-English, half-Jamaican'' or ''part Jamaican'' - he's never been to Jamaica and neither has his black British parent. He is not culturally Jamaican, he is fully British, and English to boot.

It makes as much sense as calling me, a white British person, ''part german'' because on my maternal grandfather's side there is German heritage. I'm not in any way German myself and it doesn't really make sense to claim that

DP's paternal grandparents consider themselves part Portuguese and part English, because they have lived in both countries and can speak both languages, and both cultures play such a huge role in their identity, but for DP his world is entirely English.

DaisyChain no, but if you learned Spanish, and became fluent, and took out Spanish citizenship, surely you have earned the right to call yourself Spanish?

And your children who grew up there, went to school, and speak better Spanish than English, you can't deny that they are Spanish and they may not think of themselves as English at all (and, for some countries, they wouldn't be able to have a UK passport as well as their non-UK one).