To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Many positive things have come from this country, but it has become fashionable amongst a certain group (intelligentsia, academics, large parts of the media and the liberal left) to denigrate everything about our culture.

Sorry but that's a conspiracy theory. Imperialism and its legacy has been questioned in academia and the media. Same has happened in other countries. What is denigrated is any sense of superiority. Greatness should not imply superiority to others.
I think English culture is great but it is one among many other great cultures in the world. That's ultimately the message.
Fear not though, there is no dark conspiracy to supplant English culture with other 'guest' cultures in England. Ultimately they will add a subtle flavour here and there but they will be absorbed.

There is quite a bit of this on this thread.
There's also a lot of Hard Right Bingo phrases in this thread too...
"native born"
"waking up"
"liberal left"
Etc.

The root of the problem is an insecurity about what it is to be British in a changing world. Things are changing too quickly for some, and they see isolationism as the solution in the hope that shutting the door to the outside world will maintain the status quo.

The UK right looks to the US as a role model, it conveniently speaks the same language and there's a perceived common culture as a result. But the US is a huge nation, it's not a small island on the edge of a larger, prosperous continent. It's sheer size is a buffer against short-term impacts. It will weather a few Presidential terms of isolationism until sanity returns again in the future. The UK doesn't have the economic depth to manage this sort of attitude well.

Farage et al have created a narrative that's convinced a large number of people it's still 1945 - the UK is still the plucky victor, not yet having to face the costs or reality of that victory, with a promise of the best times still to come. They've convinced Welsh mining communities, Northern metal-bashing communities, and the fishing industry that they're somehow "on their side" and it will be milk and honey in just a few years. The reality is they've already sold those industries and communities down the river. The Leave campaign has admitted to parliamentary enquiry that the car industry will be killed by Brexit to be replaced by vague "regeneration plans". Farage has been shafting the fishing industry for as long as he's not been turning up to his well paid position on the EU fisheries commission. He's backed by Banks who will make billions from a privatised, insurance-based NHS.

The question is, why do more people not see through the bullshit? the Brexit Party is running ahead in the polls, despite not being a party. Farage admitting it's a dictatorship in that he can't be deposed or told what to do, and he's not accountable to anyone. They've no policies except "Leave means Leave" with further detail to be added once they speak to their "subscribers" (and the millions from Aaron Banks, etc. add up to a lot more than the £25 donations from "normal" people - let alone all the foreign

Great post DogInATent.

Agree completely.

I agree that all the other stuff may be bollocks, but during the World Cup in 2006 several local councils “banned” the displaying of flags

With the doubt about the word banned noted, was this applicable to England flags in particular or (as I strongly suspect) all flags because of some by-law about planning permission, flagpoles and the like ?

Personally, I can't think of anything more unEnglish or unBritish than seeing a flag on every street corner. It's the sort of thing that goes in other countries that (generally) might be perceived as having less self confidence than England or Britain. Much like the seeming obsession Americans have for getting a photo of the president in every federal building (apparently it's not a law, but it seems that way ?)

@DogInATent

I’m afraid I disagree completely! I find it hard to find any common ground with the liberal left and I’m by no means a supporter of the far-right. The way of characterising politics on a left-right spectrum seem to be outmoded now, things are changing so much.

I wholeheartedly agree with @DogInATent

I still want to know how forms not having "White English" as an option means you are "banned" from ever describing yourself English

There's no law you have to fill that section in.

So I never do.

Could that not be one possible solution ?

I don't understand the obsession by public bodies of quizzing you over your ethnicity/religion etc etc. Sometimes the options are very extensive.

I do feel that it would save a vast amount of money and would be beneficial if it was the case that forms are in English and that's that. Surely people would want to embrace the English language ? Nothing to do with "England" or "Englishness" but simply because it is the global language. It seems odd to want to move somewhere for economic advancement and then not seize the opportunity of learning the world's no. 1 language. No one's asking anyone to leap around Maypoles or do Morris Dancing, but not accepting that English is essential seems ridiculous and self-sabotaging.

I don't understand the obsession by public bodies of quizzing you over your ethnicity/religion etc etc. Sometimes the options are very extensive.

It keeps some people in work if nothing else.

I do feel that it would save a vast amount of money and would be beneficial if it was the case that forms are in English and that's that.

Hard to disagree. I'd be curious to know what other EU countries provide interpretation services for non-natives who don't speak the language ?

I do feel that it would save a vast amount of money and would be beneficial if it was the case that forms are in English and that's that.

What?! Which forms are NOT in English? Never came across them.

Many if not all forms for my London borough are available in other languages. I would be astonished if this was not the case in other capital cities.

There's also a lot of Hard Right Bingo phrases in this thread too...
"native born"
"waking up"
"liberal left"

Well I’ve used those phrases, and I voted Remain and then Labour in the last election.

They’ve convinced Welsh mining communities, Northern metal-bashing communities and the fishing industry that they’re somehow “on their side” and it will be milk and honey in just a few years

People who sing from this hymn sheet never seem to understand how incredibly tone-deaf and offensive it is. What you’re saying is that “they” (the plebs, the uneducated, the working classes) are stupid and easily duped, and they got it wrong, and “we” (better educated, more intelligent and worthier types) know what is better for them than they do. It’s deeply snobbish and dismissive of the concerns of ordinary people.

The question is, why do more people not see through the bullshit?

You think it’s bullshit, and you’re entitled to that opinion, but it’s obvious that many other people don’t agree. Perhaps try to understand people’s reasons, instead of writing them off as fools. Essentially, they have different priorities to you.

The Remain campaign concentrated almost entirely on economic arguments, which was it’s downfall. To an awful lot of people, some things are more important than money. And no one can really predict whether we’ll be better or worse having left. It’s what we make of it. And they’re willing to take the chance.

No, i think it's appalling and cynical how Farage uses the genuine concerns of these communities to further an agenda which will do nothing to improve their lives.
It's not patronising, it just means I don't believe Farage and the likes of him.

The Remain campaign concentrated almost entirely on economic arguments, which was it’s downfall.

Which government has ever been able to implement any new policies without money?? No money, no change!

To an awful lot of people, some things are more important than money.

Funny how unhappy poor people are, all things considered then ?Certainly reading MN. Or is there a hidden forum for people to sing the praises of having to use foodbanks and worry about paying the rent while clothing their kids.

I don't think that person sleeping in a doorway last night, and not knowing where they will sleep tonight is particularly cheered up by the UK leaving the EU so the people that move them on can have blue passports instead of mauve ones.

What you’re saying is that “they” (the plebs, the uneducated, the working classes) are stupid and easily duped, and they got it wrong

Absolutely - how arrogant and condescending is that?

Plus the usual ‘people didn’t know what they were voting for’. It’s just not true.

@Songsofexperience

Fair enough. I’m not a fan either. But I can see why many people voted for him.

Mistigri you are dead wrong. Very few of these children come in with lots of English. As I have already stated, I have many, many children coming in who have no English despite being born and raised here, many with older siblings who were also born here! When they start, our form asks them whether the child has any English and what language they speak. Many say they only speak their 'home' language to them.

Very few of which children?

It is far better for children to learn their maternal language correctly at home and then learn the community language (English in this case) once they start school. Being bilingual has a number of advantages and it's better to learn English from native speakers than from parents who speak English badly.

My children started school without speaking the community language. It hasn't stopped them doing well and they are not exceptional by any means: in DD's high school class three of the top five students were bilingual or trilingual, and the top two students in DS's current Y12 class speak another language at home.

Immigrant children who do poorly at school are usually held back not by language but by social factors. Immigrant children with educated middle class parents tend to do well, just as native children with educated middle class do.

The posters... talking about Orwellian thought policing are acting like simply saying "I'm English" is enough to have the police knock your door down and arrest you for hate crimes

This happens. People’s fears are not exaggerated. I know of people who’ve made perfectly innocuous jokes on Twitter who’ve had the police come knocking to check that they’re ‘thinking correctly.’ I know because my DH is that copper.

Many if not all forms for my London borough are available in other languages. I would be astonished if this was not the case in other capital cities.

I'd say that would be comparatively rare in other European cities actually.

“This happens. People’s fears are not exaggerated. I know of people who’ve made perfectly innocuous jokes on Twitter who’ve had the police come knocking to check that they’re ‘thinking correctly.’ I know because my DH is that copper.”

Could we have some examples, please?

...it's a fact is it not that the London knife crime epidemic has accelerated only since European gangs arrived.

Followed by the old classic:

I'm not a racist but...

European gangs!! If I was a praying person I would pray for this country as it really has lost its way...