To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Miriam Margolyes said that he was an absolute bully at uni. And she's rad so he must be.

And as for making good. It cannot be made good. We should all be aware that the extremely wealthy country we have today is a direct result of inhumane policies carried out under the empire and yes we SHOULD feel bad about that And when will that be enough? How many generations? How do we show it? I want some practical suggestions not some feelings.

Listen carefully... I don't disagree with you. Empiricism is always a bad thing. It is always inhumane, cruel. It should be decried - look for it happening now, fight that.

But unless there is a line drawn under them somehow, historical issues ALWAYS cause future ones. Between 2 individuals you'd call it holding a grudge. When it is countries it is more likely to lead to profligate expenditure of money and lives.

Don't misunderstand me. Try and see what I mean.

"That’s just British PR at work. The friendly educator, spreading its civilised customs and institutions."

Sure, I didn't say I personally agree with the empire. I was pointing out that we are almost NEVER criticised to the point the Germans are.

German chancellors frequently go to memorials to the Holocaust both inside and outside Germany, they have done for decades. They have personally apologised, they have cried. There is a huge memorial in the centre of Berlin commemorating the murdered Jewish people. Cameron was the first PM to ever visit the memorial to the Amritsar massacre. How many British people could even tell you about that event? How many memorials to the empire do you see in the UK? Germans are taught the names of every concentration camp. They are a great example of a country that have actually tried to make amends in some way.

Churchill: "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.” Yet he is held up as a war hero and has statues of him and streets named after him.

I spend a lot of time in London and it does not feel like a British city. I think one of the reasons is that it has a large number of non English speaking tourists.
John Cleese is right.

Whether you think it racist or not, he is still right.

curious your hectoring tone does you no favours.

"And when will that be enough? How many generations? How do we show it? I want some practical suggestions not some feelings."

What practical suggestions can there POSSIBLY be for murdering millions of people?

There are none. The only thing we can do is be contrite and educate ourselves.

Oh and stop being racist twats to the people who come to our country.

"just as Britain was not the only colonising country India was not the only country colonised. Look it up!"

Where the fuck did I say it was?

I studied the British Empire for my Masters, so take your sarcy replies elsewhere.

Still waiting on a list of countries Ireland has colonised.

We have a saying for such bullshit over here - well and truly "talking through your arse".

People have similar views in Ireland. It’s great that Ireland welcomes so many cultures, the problem is when so many that come that have large families, no one in the family work, (or maybe just one) and they have to be supported. It isn’t racist to think that that will cause divisions. The same applies to the UK too.

I haven’t read the full thread so apologies if I’ve repeated anything said earlier but people from all over Europe and the rest of the world have been arriving in London since Roman times, if not before. It’s always been a hub of international trade and finance. I never assumed I was anything other than British but the majority of my ancestors came to London from elsewhere in Europe. Technically I’m more French and Dutch than anything else although my family have been here for generations. To me the diversity of London is what makes it a city I love. It’s sad that Brexit has stirred up so much negativity. London has always been a melting pot. I don’t see why that’s a bad thing.

No YOU tell me @CuriousaboutSamphire , seeing as you've made the statement. Looking it up won't produce information that doesn't exist. So I'll ask again - which countries did Ireland colonise? That's not a problem. It has been posted before, it made lots of headline after Frances Fitzgerald made her statement that Ireland has never invaded any other land, never sought to enslave or occupy

You only have to look at Wales to see some very Irish names.

Parts of Canada during the American Civil War. That one was on TV a short while ago, how the French, English and Irish fucked up taking Canada. Colonies of all were left behind.

Ireland colonised way before the diaspora. Scotland, Wales, many parts of Europe. Almost all of the great warrior kings acted like Vikings, they went out and took lands to colonise, to survive. They were prized and feared warriors as well as farmers.

I suspected as much - you're talking about invasion, not colonisation. There's a difference

Miriam Margolyes said that he was an absolute bully at uni. And she's rad so he must be.

Well, she is a luvvie who likes to be the centre of attention and hold court, so everyone can massage her ego and admire her as a great raconteur. Having met her, she is a bit of bully herself, albeit likable who will talk over everyone constantly. I’d be more inclined to view it as a clash of egos and her not getting the full attention with him around.

your hectoring tone does you no favours. I am pissed off, a tad bemused, not intending to be hectoring.

The only thing we can do is be contrite and educate ourselves. Oh! OK, that's fine then. Can we stop talking about it now? No?!?!

I studied the British Empire for my Masters, so take your sarcy replies elsewhere. Did you look at other empires? Do any compare and contrast. Or are you just going to continue to throw out lines like What practical suggestions can there POSSIBLY be for murdering millions of people?

Constant outrage doesn't fix anything... ever!

Yet he is held up as a war hero and has statues of him and streets named after him

Of course he does, because he’s deserving of them!

None of us are perfect and he did hold certain views that nowadays we find unpleasant or racist. Does that outweigh his enormous contribution to our victory in WWII? Of course it doesn’t. He was the very first politician to recognise Hitler for what he was, and to realise that war was inevitable. He’s a national hero for a very good reason.

I suspected as much - you're talking about invasion, not colonisation. There's a difference Nope! I am talking about both!

And just as there are Welsh colonies in various countries, there are Irish colonies / enclaves all over the world.

But glad to see you agree that Fitzgerald was wrong when she said Ireland has never invaded any other land, never sought to enslave or occupy

"I am pissed off, a tad bemused, not intending to be hectoring." Well you're coming across that way. Don't !!! at me and don't instruct me on what I should and shouldn't do and we'll be able to have a much more civil discussion.

Yes, I went through a history Masters without comparing the empire to anything, no critical thought went into it at all, obviously.
The rest of your post I don't even understand, so nothing to say in response.

"He’s a national hero for a very good reason." So maybe we should also study the fact that he was also a raging asshole instead of just applauding him. I'm not saying he did nothing good (though do you really think he gave a shit about what Hitler was doing to anyone else?), I'm saying let's not just say 'what a great guy' without taking into account the fact that he was also responsible for the death of millions of people.

There are none. The only thing we can do is be contrite and educate ourselves

I’m very well educated on the subject, but contrition I will not feel. It’s self-flagellating virtue-signalling at it’s finest to suggest that I should feel shame and contrition for having the temerity to be born in this country. My ancestors were never in positions of power. They were not conquerors or invaders. They were farm workers. I have nothing to feel contrition for and nothing to feel guilty about.

The rest of your post I don't even understand, so nothing to say in response. That explains it, then!

And the second half of that post isn't addressed to me, is it? As that quote wasntt me!

"My ancestors were never in positions of power. "

And yet you get to be in a position of power, as a citizen of a wealthy nation, precisely because of the empire.

I’m saying let's not just say 'what a great guy' without taking into account the fact that he was also responsible for the death of millions of people

Neither am I. I look at him in the round. And, all things considered, I still consider his accomplishments immense. The bad doesn’t outweigh the good.

And the second half of that post isn't addressed to me, is it? As that quote wasntt me

Well, yes, that's why I quoted it.

that explains it then

Not sure what that means either, perhaps you're trying to suggest I'm thick. I'm not sure. Hard to tell with all your little !!!s and so on.

Constantly outraged. I am saying you seem to be constantly outraged.

"The bad doesn’t outweigh the good."

That's where we'd have to agree to disagree then.

The blood of millions of people are on his hands. Just because they are from a different country doesn't make that ok.

I always wonder if people who make these kinds of argument would be quite so forthcoming if they were arguing it with someone who has suffered as a result of these kinds of policies.

And yet you get to be in a position of power, as a citizen of a wealthy nation, precisely because of the empire

I’ll find my hair shirt then. I must punish myself for my good luck.

"I am saying you seem to be constantly outraged."

You yourself said you were pissed off.

So not sure how accusing me of the same thing is any kind of insult.