To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

[prettyinpink23x]

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

Sorry, IMO obviously!

Named by who?

The time it takes for any case to come to court is far too long. Not justice for the accused and the accusers/victims.

Well look how that’s turned out. We have people like Huntley who was accused numerous times of rape not prosecuted who went on to murder two 11 year old girls.

And that is dreadful, and horrible. But please don’t ask me to use their deaths as justification for locking up people who could easily be innocent. It’s wrong.

Alicewond yet you've no evidence that it's not the case and there's plenty of research suggests it's certainly possible plus it's very much the experience of many girls and women.

I don't need or want your pity and I suspect that the underlying dig in that post relates to your being annoyed at me posting critically of you on a COMPLETELY different thread where you posted outdated and sexist views on parenting

I agree with you OP! In a lot of rape cases, I'm sure it's very difficult for the victim to gather enough evidence and the rapist often gets an opportunity to "plan" in pre-meditated incidents.

Just like it being incredibly unfair that the mobile phones for the victims are searched yet not the accused?!

custard where have you got the idea that accused’s phones can’t be searched?

Real danger for women throughout their lives: Getting raped/murdered

Real danger for men for a portion of their lives: Getting acused of rape

Cry me an effing river.

Pantsville NOBODY is saying they want innocent men convicted of anything - what a ridiculous statement!

What we're saying is we are sick of seeing CLEARLY guilty men going unconvicted because juries, lawyers and judges are still ignorant regarding consent and are STILL buying into ridiculous rape myths.

Hell - even when they ARE convicted the sentencing is PATHETIC!

AutumnColours I read the post several times actually - as was clear from my response! Your entire view on this is pretty much entirely based on GOSSIP.

Deathgrip - my view is not formed purely on my own experiences. Out of hundreds of women and girls I know I can count on 1 hand those who've never experienced at least a mid level sexual assault. I don't know ANY that have NEVER experienced harassment and/or low level assault.

Via brother, male friends and cousins and from working in very macho male dominated environments I've also been privy to/overheard how men approach sex and as per your comments an awful lot don't see pestering/nagging/emotional blackmail as problematic at all! This attitude HAS to be addressed.

Rape is STILL seen as and framed as (even by authorities) a "woman's problem" NO! The people best placed to change rape culture, attitudes of potential and actual rapists are other men! And they're NOT doing this!

"They’re the normal guys while rape and sexual assault are things that evil twisted sexual predators do" exactly. Many rapists and abusers don't believe they are! Doesn't make them right not even close!

That article about Reddit is sadly not shocking to me, it saddens and angers me, but it doesn't surprise me.

As I said earlier we (as a society) need to get away from the ridiculous stereotype of "a rapist" = unattractive, weirdo loner. They're not! They're ordinary, socially capable, quite possibly very attractive men.

"So shoot me down in flames 🔥 but it does bear testimony to the ‘be careful’ argument" I disagree - I think it shows VERY clearly how boys and men should be getting taught better and raised better in order NOT to become rapists.

The only ones who can prevent rape are men exactly

"And when my sons come of age I will warn them" I'm thinking you meant you'll warn them how to protect themselves, how not to be victims - but way before they "Come of age" they need to be taught how not to be perpetrators! That's the issue that too many parents are avoiding discussing!

Dorsetdays
"It still relies on one persons word against another" you're talking about once an allegation reaches court here, but if we had a society that focused on enthusiastic consent one would hope there'd be a lot less assaults in the first place because we'd be teaching our kids this is how good/healthy sexual encounters should be. It would also deny many rapists the "but she never said no" "she didn't fight me off" defences because they wouldn't be acceptable. It's about changing perspectives and attitudes.

And again - you barely pay lip service to teaching your children consent, as another mother of a son I'm genuinely interested to know exactly how stringent you are/plan to be in educating your son so that they don't become a man who coerces, abuses or rapes.

All rapists have parents - it may be very uncomfortable for parents of boys to think about but they do have a responsibility to ensure their sons really understand consent, preferably enthusiastic consent, coercion, pressure etc

Parents of girls have mostly been doing as much as they can for MILLENIA - why aren't parents of boys expected to take responsibility for how they're raising them wrt this issue?

These men are our sons, brothers, friends

Onefootinthegrave excellent post at 7.37 - the authorities seem to be going bloody backwards on this!

We need to start treated these cases with the seriousness they deserve

I noted how both types of crime you discussed - rape and dv - are mainly committed against women/girls - the authorities DO NOT CARE about girls/women's lives - we need to make them!

DorsetDays
"40% of alleged rape accusations never reach court because the victim doesn’t want to pursue action." Firstly link? Evidence?

Secondly - Is it any bloody wonder? When rape victims are treated so badly?! It could well be - at least in some cases - because they have no confidence in how the police and prosecutors are handling their cases!

"we don’t actually know that....which we don’t in all cases." What's stopping us finding out? Research could be undertaken - absolutely no reason why a website or phone line couldn't be set up to collect this information, allow victims anonymity to encourage openness.

In fact I wonder if rape crisis centres already have a pretty good handle on this! Has anyone thought to ask them?

"It’s why the police now want to be able to access the phones etc of victims so that they can gather all evidence more thoroughly. Yet there’s a major outcry about that." And have you read WHY that is? There are many damn good reasons why! Not least that it is used to discredit victims!

"One of the reasons it is so difficult to prove is that people will tie themselves in logical knots for men" as we are seeing on this very thread!

"You're right. Why do people do it though? (Tying themselves in knots" internalised misogyny, feeling defensive of their own male loved ones who they don't want to consider could be capable of such crimes, believing rape myths, being in awe of celebrity (in cases like the one being discussed), not wanting to believe it could happen to them even though they're a "good girl"...

"It’s hard for me to reconcile “zombified” and “spaced out” with a memory accurate enough to describe what happened in the room" the 2 men involved admitted sexual acts occurred - if she was too "zombified" and "spaced out" to remember - she was DEFINITELY too drunk/out of things to consent!

"even during the trial the judge can stop and direct / instruct you" given we have judges who've said things like a 12 year old girl was "asking for it" by being in a nightclub, that getting drunk was women deliberately women putting themselves at risk of rape (in a violent stranger rape case!), who've allowed defence lawyers to flout the law regarding presentation of a victims sexual history... I don't have much faith in judges correctly guiding juries!

"No one has perfect recall, particularly not of traumatic events that happened years before a trial starts." Yes! This also I believe is not well explained to juries

HerculePoirot2 - your post at 10.49 more victim blaming rape myth nonsense! Not saying no == yes! Many rape victims freeze, or "go along" with things for fear of further harm or due to intoxication - that ISN'T consent!

This shows that the system has a fundamental lack of understanding of how sexual assault works and how victims respond to trauma in reality totally agree!

"A trial, though, is a measure of whether our actual laws have been broken." You're assuming the jury understood the law!

Hercule I reached your post at 1342 and it occurred to me not once by this point on the thread has anyone (and I include myself to my Shame) has it been suggested that a defendant might be lying! Cos criminals never lie eh? 🤔

"but at the same time, people do lie." Especially criminals!

"Some women do lie though" and so do men!

"Yet, somehow, his inconsistencies don't matter. His history of lack of/non-consent doesn't matter. His behavior prior to the crime doesn't matter, his text-messages before and after don't seem to matter either" exactly!

"Well, unfortunately it is the right of a defendant - in any case - to see the evidence against them. That’s our legal system." Personally given victims/accusers are treated like criminals too (cross examined, expected to defend minutiae of every decision made that barely relates to the incident, has their personal life laid bare...) then I think they too should have the information.

"His perspective should be as small as mine was to make it fair on both sides." That I definitely agree with and anyone arguing against this I wouldn't understand.

"the accused is entitled to an informed defence" I don't see why that means the accuser personally needs to have that information, their lawyers do but they (as witnesses who's evidence should be untainted by additional knowledge like this) don't!

"Let’s not pretend that juries get to hear all relevant evidence, or that the defence don’t manage to get misogynistic bullshit masquerading as evidence admitted, or that the effort to communicate evidence to the jury is always as strong from the prosecution side as it is from the defence, or indeed vice versa" absolutely - which is why evidence presentation needs stricter regulation.

"Because it speaks to a reasonable belief in consent?" I completely disagree - but this is exactly why enthusiastic consent should be the marker and what we teach our children.

Decomposing we very rarely agree but I completely agree with you on

"but I think as a society we need to really look at our attitudes around sex and sexual assaults in a whole different light."

I don't agree on selected juries I agree that could well lead to overturning of convictions.

A far better way to create better juries is to create a better society as a whole. For EVERYONE to be better informed about consent, sex, harassment, assault, rape...

Well said graphista.

Graphista

All due respect, but that’s just an epic rant, isn’t it? You can’t engage with people by literally writing down everything they have ever written and screaming about it like a child. Have a good day.

Long rambly posts don’t add very much to the debate as they just end up being jumbled rants.

I also don’t believe for one second that every single female you have ever known in your life, out of ‘hundreds’ has been sexually assaulted (and all but 4 or 5 at what you describe at least ‘mid level’ assaults) I’m sorry but that’s just BS and it undermines your point when you distort the truth.

There’s not a chance that, even if that had happened which would be highly unlikely, that you would know about each and every one because most woman aren’t that open about sexual assault that they would choose to tell the same person.

Definite inconsistencies by one person about major elements of a case are by definition untruthfulness. If a witness can't remember then they are expected to say that, not just make shit up!

Graphista those who refer to your posts as 'epic/long/rambly/ rants' can't really argue with anything you've said so they just make a snide comment instead.

Not referring to anyone in particular, there are too many to individually come back on - but reading through this is thoroughly depressing. Rapists that are reading this must be laughing their heads off.

Because their victims are actually enabling them with their 'women should be named' 'women should be prosecuted' 'men should have anonymity' 'it's not the fault of the authorities' 'there's nothing wrong with the CPS reasoning' etc.

We should be building on the pre-existing anti rape grassroots movement, not ignoring the very real problems that are allowing thousands of (mainly) women, girls and boys to be raped and abused every year while their attackers never see the inside of a courtroom.

Reminds me of 'first the came for the jews and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew... etc'

ALL women need justice and protection and we're not going to get it unless we see a massive change in the justice system. Change should come from within - when the public and juries see that rape is taken seriously by those prosecuting it, maybe attitudes will change.

onefootinthegrave

Wow dorsetdays you don't believe how many women graphista knows that have been sexually assaulted/harassed in some way?!

The overwhelming majority of women I know have been. Not all of them, but there are more that have than haven't. I'm not lying. I don't think whey you would call that BS.

Apologies if I missed it, but did you post a link to your evidence that most rapes are dropped because the victim wants to pull out, and then it's because so many are stranger rapes? Because I've never seen those figures and I would very much like to see where you got them from.

@onefootinthegrave. If the post actually made sense it might be vaguely readable, however shouting in capitals doesn’t make the point valid.

As it is it just contains BS so undermines the thread

Personally id rather a long post than one with a humphy face () as ive not much clue as to why the poster is humphy

Im gonna make an educated guess and go for ‘can't really argue with anything you've said so they just make a snide comment instead‘

But it could be any of it

Oh missed dorsets post

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

Your guess is incorrect. I am not arguing with anybody who thinks the best way to engage with others is to be so long-winded. It doesn’t bode well for the discussion.