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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

678 replies

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 14:48

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

OP posts:
herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 18:58

prettyinpink23x

Then it comes down to whether you would rather convict an innocent or acquit a guilty person. We have a court system designed to ensure I, as a potential juror, can be confident that I didn’t do the former.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 18:59

So what would make you feel worse? You set a rapist free he rapes and destroys another girls life or you send an innocent person away? I think they are both as bad as each other. The current system is failing too.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 29/05/2019 19:00

@prettyinpink23x

I actually think the consent aspect needs to be addressed way before it gets to court. As a society I think we all need to change how we think of consent and how we apply it in our lives so that by the time we sit on juries we have a new picture of what consent is.

As I said earlier, I can't think of any occasion where I have specifically given consent, except maybe my first time where my boyfriend did ask immediately beforehand. Other than that I have never given, nor asked for consent, it has all been implied.

Would that create a bias were I ever to sit on a jury? Yes, it probably would and now, having thought about that, I would consciously have to check myself. Many others wouldn't I guess, because I wouldn't have before reading this thread and really examining why I thought how I did.

Even now, many people dismiss the idea of obtaining consent as being unromantic or of spoiling the moment and I've seen lots of articles saying that it doesn't have to be spoken but can be implied by actions. Now reading this thread I'm thinking that no, proper explicit spoken consent probably should be the norm.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:05

@DecomposingComposers Yes I agree. I get there is a grey area of consent and things evolve and cases like that I presume rarely make it to court. In this specific case if a girl is so drunk and 'zombie like' and looks like she is not enjoying it then that should raise red flags regarding consent for everyone.

OP posts:
herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 19:08

prettyinpink23x

It doesn’t matter which makes me feel worse. Our justice system is set up so that a conviction needs to reflect a reasonable certainty that the person committed the crime. Centuries of people being imprisoned and hanged and transported for things they clearly did not do led us down a path of reform to a place where, if we can rely on little else, we won’t be imprisoned arbitrarily. Your efforts to overturn that are well-intended, but - with all due respect - you are not a legal expert, you have gone through something awful and you are biased. I wish you the best of luck, but not in this particular effort.

DecomposingComposers · 29/05/2019 19:10

@prettyinpink23x

I really don't feel that I know enough about this case to comment. I saw the comment about her being like a zombie in the news report but no context to it. Was it before the attack (unlikely as I read that she had left with her friend and then returned to the room, so doesn't sound like a zombie) or was it afterwards? If it was after, how long after? So had she been drinking in the room, wasn't that drunk at the time of the attack, but by the time she left, possibly a while later, was then appearing very drunk? That's the problem with sketchy news reports - we have so few facts that it's almost impossible for us to know what the jury heard.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:10

I never once claimed to be a legal expert. Of course I am biased as are you. Everyone is and everyone uses personal experience most of the time to inform their opinions that's how we work. Are you a legal expert?

OP posts:
herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 19:12

prettyinpink23x

No.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:12

herculepoirot2

I actually think we need victims like me to change the legal system to help other victims that will go through it and make it an easier and kinder process towards them. I don't need to be a legal expert to know that the system is very harsh against victims and things could be done to change that.

OP posts:
herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 19:13

prettyinpink23x

And most of the suggested ones would be a very bad idea. Best of luck, though.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:15

herculepoirot2

Well as you are not a legal expert as you say, I don't think you can say with certainty that they would be a very bad idea. But thankyou.

OP posts:
NewarkShark · 29/05/2019 19:16

You wouldn't let a random person with no knowledge of teaching come in and dictate huge decisions in a school

No, and while of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, I don’t think people with no knowledge of the legal system should make decisions about how rape trials should take place either. I’m both a rape victim and a lawyer. Juries are directed on consent by the judge using specified jury directions - if anyone knows the specifics of those directions and says they should be amended a certain way then fair enough but lay juries are used for a reason; they’re a proper cross section of society in a way that professionals aren’t.

OP I am so sorry for what happened to you Flowers. There are loads on this thread so you won’t remember but I’m someone who has been raped and didn’t dare report it for fear of what would happen. I can’t imagine what it’s like to be brave enough to seek justice and face what you had to. I don’t agree with what you’re saying though. I believe in innocent until proven guilty and believe it is worse for the state to deprive someone of their liberty in the full knowledge there is a good chance they aren’t guilty than it is for someone guilty to be acquitted.

sparkles879 · 29/05/2019 19:16

Why are u so angry? How do you know he didn't actually do it? What If he's really innocent? And your here angry about it?

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 19:16

prettyinpink23x

No, not with certainty. Good luck.

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:17

@sparkles879 Read what I actually put in my original post. I am angry at people's comments about the girl I am not saying he definitely did it.

OP posts:
NewarkShark · 29/05/2019 19:17

Qualification to my previous post because I’ve cross posted: people who have been through the process who have ideas to make it kinder eg meeting prosecution barrister in advance or whatever is to be encouraged, when I said how rape trials take place I meant the legal aspects

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:19

@NewarkShark

Thankyou. Of course I am not a professional or part of the legal system. I have been asked what the solution would be to solving this system and I have used my personal experience to say how I think it should be changed. This is not to say I know everything I definitely don't but I thought I could offer a unique insight from the victims perspective on how the legal system could have been less harsh. That is all.

OP posts:
sparkles879 · 29/05/2019 19:19

Well if she has lied I wouldn't be surprised with the comments. And as for her whys it ok for him to go through it and be shamed and have that for the rest of his life but she can just quietly stay away from it all if she has made it up with no problems

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:21

@sparkles879

Once again if you have read my previous posts I actually said I don't think he should have been named either. To say she has 'no problems' is a huge understatement and very naive.

OP posts:
sparkles879 · 29/05/2019 19:21

If she has made it up then yeah she does clearly have problems, mental ones.

NewarkShark · 29/05/2019 19:22

prettyinpink yes, absolutely and hopefully you’ve seen my follow up clarifying that I think feedback from those who have been through it is a good idea Flowers

Maybe some things can’t be done without affecting a fair trial but I think others probably can be improved

Original poster
prettyinpink23x · 29/05/2019 19:23

@sparkles879

The operative word there is 'if' and in this thread you can see that is unlikely that she did make it up.

OP posts:
Lizzie48 · 29/05/2019 19:29

The misconceptions need to be challenged in society generally. The idea that a woman has in any way played a part in what’s happened because of what she was wearing is still very much alive. And that somehow she’s less of a victim because of her sexual history, with her rapist or any other men.

Sadly there’s a long way to go, judging by some of the comments on this thread. Especially those who think there are so many women ‘crying rape’. Very depressing.

Hithere12 · 29/05/2019 20:07

Then it comes down to whether you would rather convict an innocent or acquit a guilty person. We have a court system designed to ensure I, as a potential juror, can be confident that I didn’t do the former

Well look how that’s turned out. We have people like Huntley who was accused numerous times of rape not prosecuted who went on to murder two 11 year old girls.

User12563356 · 29/05/2019 20:07

I dont think the accused should be named unless found guilty. The victim should never be named unless the choose to be.