To postpone holiday so 12yo doesn't come

[witsendhotel]

NC for this.

I'm a single mum of a 12, 10 and 4 yo. 12 and 10 yo have an abusive dad that they see EOW and half the holidays. It's court ordered and numerous attempts to change contact have not been listened to. He's abusive towards me and emotionally abusive towards her.

We are booked to go away tomorrow, just an overnight seaside break.

12yo is challenging normally but has upped the ante lately. She constantly disobeys, argues, answers back, is rude, hits and kicks her 4 yo sibling (and has just hit the 10yo too). She is not allowed to watch youtube as a punishment for earlier issues but was watching it this morning. She tells bare faced lies several times a day. Really stupid lies where it's obvious it's her as it can't be anyone else. She's deliberately disgusting at the table so no one wants to eat with her, she is always in my room taking my things when she's been told no and to respect my space and belongings, used my bathroom, uses all the hot water purposely, helps herself to snacks when she's been told no, doesn't go to her music lessons but admits she'd not miss them if it was her dad paying and many more things.

I've had it with her. Nothing works regards consequences and I don't know how to handle her anymore. She's on the list for counselling at school but just blames everything on "things at daddy's"which she knows is no excuse to behave so badly.

I don't want to take her tomorrow. She usually spoils any trip out with her behaviour. My mum has refused to go anywhere with her now too. I could rebook it for later in the week when she's at her dad's but then her sister would miss out and ds would miss both of them.

I hate that I feel so negative towards her. I give her lots of positive attention when she's not acting up. She's a different child if she's one on one with me but due to circumstances that's very rare.

She's apparently NT but I suspect asd/add. She was referred but the gate keeper said she was fine and recommended the counselling.

I love her but I really don't like her and I hate feeling like that.

What can I do?!

I'd make getting her counselling or sessions with a child psychologist number 1 priority. My ds was emotionally abused by his dad and would act out when at home. One of the things the psychologist said was that he was testing me to see if I'd send him away. I definitely wouldn't leave her behind.

A psychologist report is also very useful in court. Also at 12 she is getting to an age where she will start to vote with her feet. Expect her to just start refusing to go or leaving her dads.

Your mum won't take her anywhere but will she have the other kids more so that you can have more one on one time with her in order to love bomb her? I know that seems the other kids are missing out or they might see it as unfair, but it might tip the tables enough to make life better for all three of them the rest of the time. Also let her do some things at home that the others can't.
Sell it to her as special time/things to do because she is the older one and she gets privileges that the others don't precisely because she is "grown up' enough, then be resolute that the others can't do it until they are the same age as she is now. This honestly works from personal experience. Combine it with love bombing because she's your oldest child and that makes her really special make sure the others don't hear you say this

I dunno.

Everyone's saying what about the DD, well what about her siblings ?? Living in this environment is extremely damaging for them. They deserve to be the centre of attention as well. They deserve their time,. Without fear of being hurt and the entire trip revolving around one person.

I've lived through it myself, DD is an adult now and is relatively unscathed........her poor brother OTOH was left with PTSD as a result of living in a war zone for years of his life. It's left him with massive issues around control that he's only just coming through now after years of support.

So no. I don't think you'd be massively evil to not take her on a one night break, in fact I think it draws a line in the sand regarding what behaviour is and isn't ok.

This sounds like a very unhappy girl.

12 seems to be a really difficult, pivotal age for some young people. I have a 12 year old that has recently gone NC with his Dad - who he always used to idolise. I suffered low level emotional abuse throughout my marriage. Looks like over the last year my ExH has been displaying some of this behaviour towards our child.

At 12, our kids having the scales fall from their eyes about important adults in their lives. They're questioning things. They've got hormones coursing around causing all kinds of confusion.

I'd seriously consider the possibility that your child is testing you to see whether you really do love them unconditionally. Rejecting your child at this time could be really damaging.

That is not to say that you don't have boundaries. You can be loving to your child and boundaried. There are good ideas above on how you impose these boundaries, but also the need to repeatedly tell your child that you love her and you want the best for her.

I do feel for you. My child is acting out in different ways - taking his anger and confusion out on himself. I hope the way through is to continue being kind, being consistent, getting support where we can and being kind to ourselves too.

I've supported her for years with regards to her dad. I've been taken to court numerous times over her refusing to go. The judge said she had to go. End of. SS are aware and not interested. School are aware. Court is aware. She is counting down the days to when she doesn't have to go. Unfortunately though when questions by SS she says she does want to go and therefore makes me look like an idiot and exH uses this to threaten full custody. We've been through this for over 6 years now.

She gets lots of positive attention and I ignore most of the smaller negative behaviours. I help her cope with things at dad's by role playing with her and getting her to explore her feelings and ways of dealing with different situations. We talk at least weekly about things and what she can do to help herself because we have learnt that her dad won't listen and the authorities won't listen. She says things are a little better now but still not great.

Her dad left for ow and has had 2 kids since and there's now 7 kids in that household when they visit. She finds it too much and too noisy and busy.

One to one time is difficult as my 4 yo doesn't see his dad at all and there's no one to look after him for me for a few hours. When the school dates are different I take her out for the day doing something she loves and generally treat her. As soon as we get home she's back to being vile though

I want her to realise there are consequences to her behaviour and that she needs to not hit and kick and lie. I feel like taking her on holiday gives the message that she can do whatever and still get treats.

She does get unconditional love and I regularly tell her I love her such as every day as she leaves for school and every night at bedtime. She is told that her behaviour is what I don't like.

It's finding the balance I guess.

Nothing works regards consequences the psychologists say that consequences don't work with any child other than in the short term (at best) and you locking doors, banning youtube, etc is not likely to make things better. This article has strategies which are thought to be more helpful and realistic, and there are other similar articles on the site:

www.ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/tweens/positive-discipline-preteen

She's a different child if she's one on one with me but due to circumstances that's very rare
Is it possible to change the circumstances or spend more quality time even if not entirely 1:1?

No.

What really needs to happen is that your dc's no longer see their father. He is clearly the real problem here.

I'm lucky that my dc's don't see their dad so I'm not up to speed with legal issues but surely she's almost at the age she can refuse to go. Same for the 10yr old.

Oh crikey. I've seen your latest update. The courts can be shite at times .

It's not about consequences. It's about giving the other children breathing space and a break from the abuse at home.

Regards giving DD one to one time, I used quite often take one of the DC out on the last day of term, school would be fine with this. Also appts during the day can be nice for a chat over a hot chocolate or whatever. ....there are ways and means to spend quality time with all children. Including the ones that's aren't taking up all your energy.

Unfortunately no, that have to go. The judge has made that very clear and that I will be punished if they don't go. Their dad is very much the problem. They are left to their own devices there, no rules, no consequences, no attention. Too much gaming.

Yes, she knows he's abusive.

With your update I’d take her this time. When she plays up then you warn her that you won’t take her next time if her behaviour continues. Tell her that much as you love her and despite how much you want her there, it isn’t fair that the day out is spoiled for everyone. Then it is her choice as to whether she gets to go next time.

I read a study that many children who have experienced DA are misdiagnosed as ASD/ADD, so you might need to accept at the moment that the "gatekeeper" was right and she is NT, but affected by the abuse.

In the longer term, what do school know? If they have referred her for counselling, has she been explicit with school about what is going on with her father? Have they spoken to you or made any referrals?

In most areas there is an Early Help support. Would you consider approaching them and seeing what support you can put in place for the family, and for her in particular?

Do you treat all the children the same? Because it seems that she is trying to be an adult, going into your space and helping herself. Can you re-draw her boundaries a little to acknowledge that she is that little bit older?

Does SHE want to go to her dad's? Because at 12 she should be Gillick competent and able to decide for herself.

In the current issue, I would take her.

@Qweenbee I think that's a great idea and I'll do that.
I have chased the counselling but will see the GP and get her referred via there. She's been waiting since September with school.
On the up side she's coped amazingly with going to high school and is doing really well. Her dad bitches if she misses any time due to illness so whilst I would take her out if I thought this would help I don't think it's a good message to send and he'd be on to SS about it. She would also abuse this and requests regular days with me if she was feeling upset. There are 2 days coming up before the summer holidays where I can take her out and treat her.

I've been there so know exactly what you are going through, just coming out the other side with 16yr old dd. It's really tough but I promise it does get easier, get all the help you can get for her and look after yourself. If you can face it I would carry on with your trip, it's a great opportunity for you to model loving, caring behaviour which right now she won't appreciate but she really will in the future when her brain is more fully formed. Good luck!

Aren’t you forgetting the baby? 🤔

What baby?

I know exactly how you feel. I would not take my 12 year old dd on holiday full stop and didn’t last year either because of her awful behaviour. I didn’t leave her though as I don’t know how she would have coped with that, we just didn’t go at all. We can’t do days out any more and I avoid taking her anywhere tbh even to the shop.

My dd does have diagnosed needs and these have worsened with puberty.

I would pursue extra help with your dd eg gp, counselling, sn assessment as it sounds like she needs some support to get her back on track and also check there is nothing else going on.

Hi, would you consider some parent mentoring sessions from a specialised person. Could you afford that? They would help you to manage her and to give you support as a parent while your daughter is going through this.
It's you that needs support as a Parent in this situation. If there are family resource agencies near you they may know of people who offer this. Some child/teen psychotherapists work with parents as well. For reassurance for yourself, so that you are not alone both in the situation trying to manage it, and have oversight on overall issue as well.

You need proper help with this.
If your ex was at home with you and being abusive - you would get help. You would be able to call the police for instance.
What reason do SS give for not helping you?
I'm not surprised your DD is behaving like this if she'd been abused, and you also need help with how to handle her. Some wise words given in previous posts.
Yes, maybe postpone the holiday, but don't leave her behind. She's 12, she needs someone to have her back.

My mum has just had a word with her as she was stunned at witnessing how I was spoken to. She speaks to me like I'm dirt.

Just to be clear: I wouldn't have left her behind. I'd have postponed so that I went with just ds once both girls at their dad's as they are going later this week.

I'm going to make a GP appointment when they reopen tomorrow and see what help I can get for her.

I'm a SAHM at the moment and haven't got money for private therapy.

I had a gift voucher for the hotel and think I'm going to postpone until next summer when I'm hoping to take them on a proper holiday to Cornwall. This was just a quick overnight break as I'm desperate for a change of scenery.

Cup of tea time I think.
Thank you for all tour suggestions x

How long until she no longer has to see her father?

2/3 years I think. Although thebjudge told us of a case where a 15 yo was made to see their dad

If he is abusing her, what have SS and the school put in place?

Nothing. They aren't interested as it doesn't meet their threshold for intervention. Any attempts to involve them and my ex uses it as a stick to beat me as I'm the crazy ex accusing him of things that aren't true. I can't wait for them both to reach 18 so I don't have to have anything to do both him and they are truly free to make their own decisions.

Are you recording every incident of emotional abuse and telling SS/school - sometimes thresholds are triggered by repeated incidents of the same thing - so eg leaving a 12 year old overnight once might not trigger support but doing it twice a week for 6 months probably would.

Waiting until she’s 18, if he is emotionally abusing her is going to leave her very damaged. They should be offering him support with his parenting at the very least - refusing it adds to the picture.