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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What on earth is going on in America??

878 replies

Nanny0gg · 15/05/2019 10:27

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48275795

How can a supposedly 'civilised' society pass such a retrograde law?

And other states following suit?

OP posts:
Ginger1982 · 16/05/2019 17:20

*I am not in the UK.
*
Thank fuck.

InionEile · 16/05/2019 17:25

If a woman's life is in danger if she becomes pregnant, she needs to not get pregnant in the first place. If she does become pregnant, she can carry the baby to viability and give birth early.

Ah, to be that naive. I used to think like that when I was a teenager, raised by deeply Catholic parents and brainwashed with pro-life propaganda in my Catholic school. I had zero experience of life, of medical care or sex. I was pretty clueless, just like @agnurse is. To me abortion was hypothetical as I had never had sex, been sexually assaulted, been pregnant, given birth or had a miscarriage. I see that same naiveté among the male legislators and their handmaidens, like agnurse, usually older women who have forgotten what it's like to be at risk of pregnancy or young religious women who have no experience of life and have never had sex.

Now I'm married, have had two DC and a miscarriage. My first pregnancy ended in miscarriage at 12 weeks. I couldn't have a D&C for various reasons so I had to miscarry naturally. It was incredibly painful, I had a lot of blood loss and had to go to the ER, lying in the ambulance terrified I was dying because of the amount of blood pouring out of me. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. That was a transformative experience for me.

Because of Alabama's new legislation, a woman in that state who has a natural miscarriage like mine can end up being questioned by the police on whether she took pills or other action to induce miscarriage and could be charged with a crime if the men who question her decide she's guilty. It's sickening, it's medieval and women deserve so much better.

Haberdash · 16/05/2019 17:27

The US laws are terrible but some of our newly popular pro-Brexit politicians are also against abortion in almost all cases.

I have always wondered if the father should get some say about abortions.

InionEile · 16/05/2019 17:27

Currently pro-lifers in the US are saying 'oh but that would never happen, we don't want to criminalise women who miscarry, that's not our intention'.

But it WILL happen because it has happened and since it's Alabama, I'll give you three guesses who it will be happening to. Here's a clue: not protected, middle-class, white women with big ignorant opinions on abortion.

agnurse · 16/05/2019 17:45

InionEile

If the baby is already dead, a D&C is not an abortion. It's ethical and acceptable.

Snakelight · 16/05/2019 17:51

Agnurse, what's your view on the ethics of the conjoined twin example on the previous page?

Lweji · 16/05/2019 18:02

I have always wondered if the father should get some say about abortions.

I should think so. As long as they were prepared to carry a pregnancy themselves to the end.

momtoboys · 16/05/2019 18:02

American here. The wheels are coming off this country. It gets worse everyday.

agnurse · 16/05/2019 18:11

Snakelight

That goes above my pay grade. I would need to see what respected biomedical ethicists have to say. It could potentially fall under the double effect principle, but I am unsure. It could also set a very dangerous precedent that if someone is "unproductive", it would be ethical to end that person's life in order to support someone else.

As an example, there are probably thousands of people in care homes. Many of them will die within a few years. Those care homes are expensive. Nursing care is paid for by the state. Maybe we should just tell all those people to end their lives or we should just kill them off. They're not really contributing anything to society by being in a care home. We're paying to care for them. Eliminating them would result in more money being available to provide for those who are still productive.

Pliudev · 16/05/2019 18:13

Yes and things are getting worse just about everywhere. I'm probably older than most of you and I feel as if everything I've ever seen as progress is being dismantled. I would never have imagined the right would come to such prominence bringing with it the casual acceptance of racist attitudes and the roll back of women's rights. That my generation is largely responsible makes me despair.

Pliudev · 16/05/2019 18:14

Obviously I was responding to momtoboys!

isabellerossignol · 16/05/2019 18:15

It could also set a very dangerous precedent that if someone is "unproductive", it would be ethical to end that person's life in order to support someone else.

In what way?

agnurse · 16/05/2019 18:19

Well, in the case scenario given, Mary's life is unproductive and a risk to Jodi. Some people believe that it would be ethical to end Mary's life in order to improve Jodi's.

We know that we have a limited pot of funding available for health care. Much of that money is currently spent on tertiary care (i.e. rehabilitation and treatment after a health problem has occurred). As the population ages, it is expected that we'll end up spending more money on long-term care. That takes away money that could go towards other services.

Let's say that we have two patients. Fred is 75 years old and has had a stroke. He lives in a care facility and is totally dependent for care. He has no family to look after him. Tom is 30 years old and has dilated cardiomyopathy. He needs a heart transplant to survive. He's otherwise quite healthy and is expected to get many years out of a new heart. But we only have enough money to fund either Fred's care or Tom's heart transplant. Not both. Is it ethical to say, "Hey, let's end Fred's life because his nursing care costs too much. Then we'll have money for Tom's heart transplant. After all, Fred isn't working anymore. He's a drain on society. We'll get much more societal investment out of Tom."

Snakelight · 16/05/2019 18:19

I don't think care homes are a good analogy. In the case of the conjoined twin scenario, and certain abortions, the life of one twin (or fetus) is both (a) dependant on the body of another human being, and (b) jeopardizes the life or physical well-being of the other human being. That's quite different from killing people to save money.

If the double-effect principle would apply in the conjoined twins case, surely it applies to some abortions too?

agnurse · 16/05/2019 18:20

The purpose of an abortion is always to end the life of an unborn child. That makes it unacceptable.

The only exception would be if a Fallopian tube with an ectopic pregnancy was removed. The intention is not to kill the baby. That's an unfortunate side effect. The intent is to save the mother.

Booyahkasha · 16/05/2019 18:22

Just ignore her, everyone, she's an ill-educated troll, sadly met her type before, no understanding of real people and wanting to get a rise out of us. She's just one person and not a policy setter!

isabellerossignol · 16/05/2019 18:23

I don't think your care home/young person needing a heart transplant scenario is remotely similar to the conjoined twin scenario. Because it's about money at heart.

Jodie isn't considered expendable because she is unproductive.

sallyfox · 16/05/2019 18:24

hasn't gone thru Supreme Court yet, so may not be passed

sunshine11 · 16/05/2019 18:26

I find it ridiculous that we think that anyone has the right to tell somebody what do with their own body. Whether it’s unenforced medical procedure or denying someone access to medical procedure it’s barbaric.

Gromit78 · 16/05/2019 18:29

What's wrong with today's society to think think the baby growing inside their mother's womb has not got a body of his/ her own that should be protected? Most rape victims take the morning after pill. And those women whom I know have conceived a child as a result of rape have treasured the child. So let's use a bit of wisdom here. There are plenty of infertile parents who would love a baby. There are plenty of women who find themselves in difficult positions and don't want a baby. Pregnancy does not last forever. Why don't women who find themselves expecting see the pregnancy through and see how they feel when the baby comes. If they still cannot face motherhood just give the baby to a couple who'd like a child. No baby needs to die in this process.

GarnierBBCream · 16/05/2019 18:32

Stop feeding it, people! Just don't engage!

Tunnockswafer · 16/05/2019 18:33

Where are these people coming from? Are they regular mumsnetters?

texasgurl · 16/05/2019 18:33

It will most likely get overturned in a higher court. Far right/left bills are passed at the state-level all the time and most of them are DOA. I don't know what's going on over here. Personally, I feel like only the people with the most extreme views on either side are ever heard.

GarnierBBCream · 16/05/2019 18:34

When combined with moves to outlaw forms of birth control, cut education/healthcare/welfare to children and their parents, it's not about saving 'the unborn child', it's about punishing women for sex, even if it has been forced on her. It's straight up misogyny. As for 'give it up for adoption then' that is straight up Gilead handmaid crap.

LittleMy77 · 16/05/2019 18:35

Brit in the US here, and its a shitshow. Georgia and Alabama have set the precedent - Missouri has just announced its following suit, and Virginia is saying the same.

To the PP point about the supreme court - this is exactly why they're doin it. Once it gets booted there, they will use it to try and overturn Roe V Wade (woman's right to choose) Given its now republican controlled due to the appointment of that rapist arsehole Kavanaugh, there's a real risk Roe V Wade will be overturned. And then we're really fckued

If anyone feels incensed enough to do anything, donate to Planned Parenthood, ACLU or for something more boots on the ground in Alabama, here yellowhammerfund.org/?fbclid=IwAR2naxm8IdLQ8PQiBGnyTb8cLev1FAfFjtEVKvMO2sFVKeFrRyOZ6-y1XiA