smacking her kids- intervene?!

[Ilovetakeaways]

Sister has two kids 7 and 9. She is struggling to parent her children, often in the mornings and bedtimes. There is always some altercation. She is living with our father and our other sister at the moment due to renovations at her property.
When I visit I hear her stomping, shouting, youngest screams whilst having tantrums and just terrible disorder. My sister swears, grabs them and god knows what else. I was so shocked and disgusted to hear this going on but didn’t intervene. My sister goes mad if anyone tries to intervene and says it’s undermining her parenting.
I love those children to bits and fear something bad will happen when they move out. My other sister and father are fed up of it and say she’s abusing the children.
I want to discuss this with her and will do so as Those poor children should not be going through this. I know I’m being unreasonable by not saying something to her. Guess I just wanted advice.

Just to add there is a difference in smacking and shouting in a controlled manner as a form of discipline in an otherwise safe and loving environment and losing your temper and lashing out.

Neither is particularly palatable to me personally but there is a difference. I was smacked as a child on a handful of occasions but as a form of discipline after repeated warnings (if I have to count to ten kind of stuff). Consequently I don’t feel traumatised at all by been smacked but that’s very different to someone visibly and verbally angry with me attacking me.

Not only am I angry about my mothers abuse, I am angry at every single adult who witnessed it regularly and did fuck all about it. Mostly at her friend who was a high ranking social worker

Do. Something.

She needs a talk from her family. Just tell her off. Does she have a well-balanced diet because she is so irritable? Could be hormones or lack of vitamins.

I think this is really sad, that she’s living somewhere with people who could help her and not taking that help but perhaps she’s too proud.

But, what she’s doing to those kids is just wrong, and this is their lives and it’s your job and your sisters etc to make sure those kids are safe and not being hurt by anyone, and that includes your sister.

So I’d be sitting her down and saying things need to change otherwise you will need to take it further. And if she doesn’t agree to get help and receive support to parent kids with more positivity then certainly report her, but I do think you can manage this within your family. I know when I was really struggling with my kids it was because I was knackered, depressed and overwhelmed and I saw the dr and got help for them to ensure a better environment for them and a mum who didn’t feel like the worst mum ever all the time. I really hope you can be kind but firm with her, offer her support etc and move forward.

I agree you need to call it out. Very soon. The thing that jumped out to me was grabbing their faces. That made me wince (and I’m a staunch anti smacker) because it’s nothing to do with behaviour and everything to do with anger.

Those kids don’t deserve this. Your sister needs help - either voluntarily with her family helping and monitoring, or professionally with social services.

I called out a relative out at a family gathering for being too heavy handed with one of the grandchildren. I did it in public, loudly, stopped what was happening, told the child the relative was wrong loud enough for everyone to hear. It was embarrassing but very necessary. I’m pretty sure now that it won’t happen again - he was mortified and just neeeded someone to remind him about appropriate behaviour (I wouldn’t let him sole care my kids though, just in case). Maybe your chat will be your sisters wake up call. If not then you were right to think there is a problem.

I find it incredible that some do not think that this is abusive behaviour. I can only imagine what goes on away from other family members. Being a strung out single parent is fuck all excuse to swear, grab, hit and scream at kids. What the hell is wrong with posters if you think this is not abuse. Accusing them of being 'hysterical' further up thread FFS

OP I would urge you and your family to intervene and do something about this. Those kids have nobody to protect them from this woman. I would also make it VERY clear to her that she is in serious danger of those kids disclosing to someone at school what has been going on and she will then be having to deal with SS who WILL intervene over her utterly shite parenting.

Inliverpool1

Are they boys or girls .... “

What difference does it make, shouldn’t be smacking/swearing at them whatever their sex?

Smacking is not illegal, far from ideal but it’s not abuse

FFS. Did you read the what the OP has described?
It's also not illegal to give a 5 year old alcohol in your home.... I guess that isn't abusive either.

If the OP was being hit, grabbed, sworn and screamed at would THAT be abuse

Your comment is beyond appalling.

Whether or not you agree with smacking or not is neither here nor there on this threads (it’s a bit like pro choice)

This mother is clearly struggling, and she needs support, not only for her kids but also herself.

I dont think she's abusing her children she's snapping in a stressful situation and reacting inappropriately, I can imagine the unsettle meant is causing her kids to act up aswell, it's difficult because they are at an age where they should be behaving. your judgement is probably making her more snappy and stressed, does she get any help from any of you?

I think your sister needs help. Depression and other MH problems can make you feel angry and irritable. Or it could just be the circumstances causing her anger. Either way I would ring NSPCC for advice.

she needs help to form a better bedtime routine, they can be hell at times if your kids are acting up, I think finding better methods would be helpful here.

Actually I think those that smack or shout in a controlled manner are the psychos it’s one thing to loose it with naughty kids it’s another to make a conscious decision to do it.

Thanks for the advice.

Regardless of whether smacking is legal in England, the turmoil at the beginning and end of the day is potentially damaging. Being told to lie or deceive other family members, being pulled around by the face, can lead to escalation. It would be consudered emtional abuse here.

Home renovations can test the most patient parent. It sounds as if the living situation has become very stressful for your sister. Is she depressed? Can she access parenting courses? Does the school have wellbeing community classes? Is there a Homelink worker at the school? These are for early intervention.

How do you think your sister may react if you challenge her about her parenting? Would it be easier to contact the school? Perhaps the teachers have seen a change for the worse in the children. Do you suspect this is her parenting style regardless of where she lives?

If you choose to approach her as a family, I'd suggest it is done very calmly and without blame, however angry or defensive the mum becomes. Her children don't need to become estranged from two aunties and a grandad.

I realise that your decision will depend on what you know of your local social work department, but something needs to be done to support everyone.

I dont think she's abusing her children she's snapping in a stressful situation and reacting inappropriately

So if an adult is stressed and shouts at/slaps his/her partner that's not abuse?

Please just ask her how she is. Don't mention the kids to start with as it will sound like you are judging and blaming her and that will make her worse. It sounds like she is having a hard time so ask her. How she feels. How she is doing. Hows life/work etc etc. Maybe you could take her out for a drink and some quiet time. Get her to tell you her worries and then when you hear what she has to say you can help her with that. Then she will probably be much calmer and more able to manage her children. She sounds unhappy. Help her to arrange support. Then maybe suggest a routine for the mornings and evenings. Putting them to bed at different times - a cuddle and a story etc etc. We have all had difficult times - I know what I needed.

I dont think she's abusing her children she's snapping in a stressful situation and reacting inappropriately

What nonsense. Deciding if something is abuse is down to the actions of the alleged abuser and the impact on the alleged victim. It's got nothing to do with the possible motivations or root causes. You might as well argue that sexual abuse isn't really abuse if the abuser has some underlying excuse that you happen to think deserves sympathy and understanding.

Councils offer lots of free parenting courses and advice. I'm not sure if its available through the council or CAHMS but you can ask for a family resilience officer who basically comes to your home and helps you with parenting advice.
Children learn through modelling - my best friend who is one of the nicest people in the world would smack her children in times of very bad naughtiness as that was the way she was raised. I didn't realise this until it came to a point where she smacked her daughter infront of my children and it traumitised them.
I was wondering what to do about it when shortly after her daughter smacked my daughter in anger...my friend never smacked her children again.
If I was you I would do lost of research, think carefully what you are going to say to her and the environment for saying it. Lead with the issue that I know its hard and you are doing your best but maybe we can help you...or something. Yes, I think you need to talk to her about it. Parents who smack position smacking as them taking control...but its actually the opposite - it means they have lost control.

Not only am I angry about my mothers abuse, I am angry at every single adult who witnessed it regularly and did fuck all about it. Mostly at her friend who was a high ranking social worker angry

I’m not sure how old you are, however if like me (mid-30s) then those years ago it was socially acceptable and even condoned, as children should be heard and not seen.

We have came along way in 20 years, it was only in 1986 that corporal punishment was banned in state England, and 1999 for independent schools, some schools fought this and it was I think in 2005 where Tony Blair intervened that it came to an end.

Smacking laws have changed considerably in recent years, last I believe was in 2017 (Scotland)

In terms of improving children’s rights (health, emotional, well being etc) things are improving at a considerable level and thankfully in the right direction.

There's valid points to both sides but actually you're seeing everything at it's worst ( bedtime and morning are without doubt our most stressful times) and shes sharing a roof with family which raises her being on edge, plus shes sheing you all watching and probably trying to keep them unser control so in terms of it escalating when she moves out I don't know that that will be a problem. Before I had older kids I used to think she was crabby and ott when she got upset/ mad but I'd sayshes wrecked. Do talk to her about it but not in a please stop you're killing your children way. Btw I'm not condoning smacking etc and I never have but I'm lucky with my dh who takes over when things get ott *( and op I have lost it big time, I'd be shocked at any parent who hasn't)

Sorry I mean my ds when I say she!

Some of the awful answers on here makes be realise why children like baby P and Victoria C were abused to their deaths... No one does anything!

There are three adults who are witnessing this and are all calling it abuse. Yes you have got to deal with it. In the right way. Your sister needs help if she is acting out of character and not coping. Ultimately you have to take responsibility for the safety of those children. Call nspcc anonymously and talk to them. Get advice, get help, take action. If this escalates and something even worse happens when they are at home without witnesses you will never ever forgive yourself. My mum accused me of being complicit in the abuse when I procrastinated in calling SS about children I knew who were being abused. I called SS within ten mins of that conversation.

She is swamped, stressed out and has not got the back-up of another parent, which means she is probably not in an ideal situation to identify what she is doing wrong with a level head or do as much about it as she'd like to, if she could.

First intervention should be to offer some serious support, ie a break for her and a serious chunk of time out every week. No judgment and no passive aggression but some recognition of the fact she needs this and some reduction in her stress levels, and practical implementation of that recognition might be a good first step towards fixing problems. It would also have the impact of immediately taking the problem back a bit from the children who are priority one. At this stage you might not want to get into why because stressed out people who feel sad and powerless can get defensive in ways that are unhelpful - you will know her and the situation better than us.

Once this is underway you can think about how to tell her she was incredibly stressed and not herself in a way that is separate from you offering a bit of unconditional backup. Assuming she loves her children and is a good person this is all repairable, but step one is to manifest your wish to help in a useful way that stops the immediate problem.