To have a 5th child

[Flowerflow]

I have 4 children ages 13, 9, 8 and 4 (5 in a few days), recently DP and I have been discussing have another child, he completely up for it but I'm still a little unsure. I have a few concerns like we currently live in a 4 bedroom house, oldest two share and youngest two have their own bedrooms. 8 year old is the only boy and if were to have another boy they would probably share but there would be a big age gap and DS wouldn't be impressed. That or we move to a bigger house which we might not be able to afford where we currently but would be able to if we move slightly further away. Another concern would be there'll be 5/6 between them and our current youngest so new baby might feel left out or the odd one out although not all our children are very close in age. I'm also unsure about going through pregnancy again, I've never really enjoyed it, baby, toddler stage and so I'll happily go through again but pregnancy I'm willing to go through not exactly happily though. On the other hand I'd love to have a fifth child and these concerns and problems can be worked through

HBStowe

*the narrative even in more ordinary circles is anti-human. How often do you read or hear: "Humans are a cancer. Humans are a plague. We ought to be wiped off the earth".

These is a wide chasm between ‘humans should be wiped off the earth’ and ‘it’s probably a bad idea to have a fifth child’, isn’t there

You're right in one sense but the language used in this thread has gone far beyond 'having a fifth child is a bad idea'. It's been vitriolic.

I'm just saying we ought to be wary of the vilifying and de-humanising that seems to be more acceptable.

@MsTSwift I completely agree about the company flights. It's ridiculous. We have telephones, email, Skype, conference calls. How many business trips are really necessary? How many working hours are lost on travel? An ex of mine worked for a finance group. He flew to Northern Ireland from Manchester once a month, regularly drove to Birmingham, North Yorkshire, Wales, Hull, Liverpool, Cumbria, all over the place. He spent most of his working day in the car on the days he travelled at great cost to his family time, his parents who he relied on for childcare, the company he screwed mileage and expenses out of and then the environmental cost of fuel, emissions, take away coffee cups (terrible costa habit) and take away food packaging. Most of those trips were total nonsense according to him and could have been avoided by making use of current communication systems. Times that by the millions of people doing the same for work. It's totally irresponsible of companies to be operating like this when the planet needs us to cut down on such things. That's a whole other thread though.

Off top of my head one dad commutes to Brussels another to Copenhagen we live in south west England. I feel guilty for holiday flights then hear of this and despair. Skype?!

planes are gonna fly with or without big families using them. So the amount of children I have is kind of irrelevant in that argument.

The level of ignorance when it comes to all environmental issues from people who have chosen to excessively procreate is disappointing but not surprising.

If more people want to fly, more flights will happen, more damage will be caused...

I appreciate that some language has probably gone too far, but I also understand the compelling sense of panic people feel at just how desperate the state of the planet is. It’s genuinely frightening that in the face of the absolute horror we’re facing, some people are advocating families of five kids.

@mydogisthebest, that is hardly a considered response.

@hereforthegos Thank you. It's a shame this thread has been taken over by people with an agenda. I'm not sure that's what the OP intended.

To all the people saying, oh well we're all ruining the planet so what does one more matter etc, obviously don't really get the point.

Yes, we are all having an environmental impact, we can't avoid that altogether, other than by committing suicide.

But we can all do our bit. And the biggest thing we can do is keep family sizes small, ideally one or two children if we have children at all. We can also go vegan/vegetarian, reduce plastic use, get solar panels, not drive/drive an electric car, grown own veg, not fly to name a few things. But the single most impactful thing we can all do is not have kids or at least keep family size small.

So I think it's fair enough to point this out to the OP even if we are car drivers, meat eaters etc if we have smaller families than five.

I'm loathe to say it but the parallels with the language of totalitarian regimes of the 20th century is striking.

Seriously? Sharing your concerns about the environmental impact of having 5 kids makes you a Nazi. Seems reasonable

HBStowe

I appreciate that some language has probably gone too far, but I also understand the compelling sense of panic people feel at just how desperate the state of the planet is. It’s genuinely frightening that in the face of the absolute horror we’re facing, some people are advocating families of five kids.

I understand that. I really do. Even as someone who chose to 'excessively procreate' (a delightfully humane phrase used by TacoLover on this page). And as I said before, in times of crisis people turn on each other. But given the catastrophe we face in the near future I think it is worth remembering that and being vigilant against language and proposals that incite hate and violence towards groups of people whose lives look different from ours.

I imagine those same people are still driving their 2 cars here there and everywhere and going on flights at least once a year though.
My friend works in climate change. She's very passionate about it. They live in a big house, have two cars, two kids, fly on holiday yearly, the odd business trip to Germany, they eat meat, her husband smokes, they drink heavily, recycle but use a great deal of paper coffee cups and pre-packaged take away lunches and snack foods. To be fair, I'm not sure what exactly they do as a family to lessen their carbon footprint

The "agenda" is to advise others to make more sustainable choices so that future generations can live without suffering from our actions. It is an argument that has both scientific and logical foundations, and yet it is being made out as if it's some sort of Mumsnet anti-chile conspiracy!

I agree that some of the posts on this thread have gone too far (forced sterilisation) but I'm shocked at how many posters seemingly don't give a shit about how their choices negatively impact others (including their own children and grandchildren). Voluntary population control is the best thing we can do for the planet.

But honestly I don't get the impression that you're really interested in any of this, based on your continuous 'swings and roundabouts' nonsense. More people = more consumption.

And I really don’t know how much better to put this either:
You = part of the problem just as much as everybody else. My child isn’t sat using the internet moaning on MN but you here you are. My child doesn’t drive but there is a bigger chance that you do. It definitely IS swings and roundabouts.

*anti-child. Mumsnet is presumably not conspiring against Chile...yet

PCohle

I'm loathe to say it but the parallels with the language of totalitarian regimes of the 20th century is striking.

Seriously? Sharing your concerns about the environmental impact of having 5 kids makes you a Nazi. Seems reasonable.

I didn't say anyone was a Nazi. And there were various regimes that used the sort of language I was referring to. Not just the one that originated in Germany in the 30's.

And I stand by what I said. There has been a lot worse than just 'sharing concerns' on this thread. There really has.

Maybe someone could start a separate thread about the impact of having children on the environment and climate change.

OP, only you can decide. It's your choice to make along with your husband. I hope that whatever you decide, that you and your family are happy

People should be able to choose how many children they have.

Motheroffeminists

To be fair, I'm not sure what exactly they do as a family to lessen their carbon footprint

Having 2 children instead of 5 will balance out the carbon footprint of 2 cars, holidays, and smoking.

My child isn’t sat using the internet moaning on MN but you here you are. My child doesn’t drive but there is a bigger chance that you do. It definitely IS swings and roundabouts.

But I, and your child, exist. OP's hypothetical child doesn't.

All I can do is minimise my environmental impact now I'm here. OP is talking about creating a child that doesn't yet exist. The option for that child not to create any environmental impact at all is there.

People should be able to choose how many children they have.

Well you're in luck. They can!

But when they look for opinions on MN they're going to get honest opinions.

Given the OP is aware of the impact of an individual human on the planet, do you think she was perhaps looking for more than that repeated in ever more unpleasant terms?

I don't disagree with any of the environment arguments made against the proposal of a 5th child. I, like most reasonable people, try to do something. I don't fly, I eat a plant based diet, we live in a smaller house than we could, I reduce, reuse and recycle where possible. I avoid palm oil and today I installed Ecosia as my web browser (check it out!).
But the personal attacks, the dehumanizing language. It needs to be called out. It's not ok.

funinthesun19

And I really don’t know how much better to put this either:
You = part of the problem just as much as everybody else. My child isn’t sat using the internet moaning on MN but you here you are. My child doesn’t drive but there is a bigger chance that you do. It definitely IS swings and roundabouts.

I'm fairly certain your child will use the Internet and drive in the future. So your argument is invalid.

Identify Godwin's law is alive and well.

How does the one child rule work in China? My friend married a Chinese woman and they had a son. Then they apparently paid £30k to have their second child. This is something I have no idea about but it seems unbelievable and he has form for bs. How do they enforce the one child rule? What happens if you accidentally get pregnant again or decide you want another child and deliberately get pregnant? Does China have high rates of sterilisation? If your spouse dies and you remarry can you have more? Does anyone know anything about it? Sorry, lots of questions!

I was waiting for that!

I was very careful not to mention the word though!