To think it’s not just the owner, sometimes it’s the breed?

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I’m a dog lover, I love all dogs especially big working breeds.

In my life I’ve had German shepherds, Rottweilers, Labrador’s and spaniels. I was always of the opinion that it’s the owner and not the breed.

But, why are there so many deaths related to pit bulls? I get the argument that pit bull type dogs tend to be owned by wrong uns so more likely to be trained to be aggressive. Ok. I also get the argument that a pit bull attack is more likely to be fatal than a spaniel attack. Fine.

But look at the statistics. Over 200 deaths related to pit bulls over a 13 year stretch in the USA alone. Most of them seemingly unprovoked. The next breed to be accountable for the most human deaths was the Rottweiler with around 40 deaths. The majority of these deaths were related to dogs which had been trained as protection dogs or were provoked.

Doberman’s had less than 15 deaths which all of them relating to unique circumstances (previously abused, trained protection dogs, one was a dog who killed its owner during an epileptic fit).

So why the huge difference with pit bulls? A lot of the pit bull deaths were caused by family dogs with no previous history of aggression.

I’m starting to change my mind. Maybe sometimes it IS the breed?

YANBU, it's obviously the breed. All breeds have different temperaments and behaviours.

I dont believe its the breed I think it`s the breeding of these animals. You only have to check out the pit bull breeding sites to see the state of some of these dogs, more muscle, wider bodies, huge heads and very powerful looking animals , some look almost cartoon like.

What are the statistics for non-fatal attacks? Because I always thought it’s obvious that a pit bull might not be any more likely to attack than another breed of dog, but if two types of dog attack a person then the pit bull is more likely to cause death than another breed due to its size and strength.

I don’t think pit bulls are inherently more aggressive, but they are more powerful.

I think it’s foolish to say that the breed doesn’t matter - size and strength of the animal is very significant. The only time I’ve been attacked by a dog, it was a lovely pet who unknown to anyone had developed a brain tumour causing sudden unprovoked aggression. If that dog had been a pit bull, the outcome of that attack would have been a lot worse. So breed does matter!

Isn't it that a bull-breed attack is more likely to be fatal?

That's not the same as being more aggressive or more likely to attack. A study in 2016 showed the dog most liable to bite you (in the UK) is actually the Labrador.

The other breeds are staffs, German Shephards and Collies. So out of the top 4 in the UK, only one is a bull-breed.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-breed-most-likely-to-attack-bite-you-revealed-a7166296.html

I also believe it's the way they are brought up but also the way we perceive things. Over the years I have been attacked (this is the word I'd use as no serious injuries) by 2 dogs.
One being a Jack Russell who leapt out of bushes at me and bit my hand and I had scratch marks down my legs. These were at a height of a child's face. Only to be told by the owner well he's only little and no harm done.....
And the second was on Saturday this week where I was chased by a Collie and he bit the back of my leg. Knocked on the owners door and was told what to you expect he's a working dog that's what he does to heard animals.
Both of which were attacks but both of which the owner had a excuse for.

It’s how they’re raised and certain breeds are more popular with those who encourage them to fight/be aggressive etc so become socially viewed as a bad breed. I don’t believe any dog is born that way it’s how people treat them/train them/care for them that impacts. Most dogs are trainable so there’s no excuse for aggression. Nothing wrong with pit bulls, I had an aunt who bred them for 10 years and there was never a ‘dangerous’ one, some can be because of genes/owners hence being banned but it doesn’t mean every single one is vicious. Likewise for Rottweilers and staffs, always been great with my children and better behaved than some of the ‘gentle’ breeds. If one attacks they’re all ‘bad’ but you rarely hear of the cute little Pom ripping the postman apart!

It doesn't help that Bulltype dogs being labelled as "nanny dogs" as if this would in itself make them great with kids and most of it is not true anyway. thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2010/08/nanny-dog-myth-revealed.html
Yes they can be great family dogs but this type of breed is very lethal when things do go wrong. They were bred to fight, tear and maul and the build and bite of these dogs are a legacy to that.

i really think it is down to the owner in most cases. All breeds do have certain characteristics and traits but a good owner should be able to control those or train their dogs well. Pit bulls in most cases have a very bad start in life, they are bred by bad people and then are brought up to be aggressive. Combine that with their muscles and powerful jaw, yes its easy to assume its just the breed. But its more the way they are treated and raised as I'm sure if a nice family raised a pit bull from a puppy, they wouldn't have anywhere near the same level of risks.
I have a retired Greyhound (Ex-racer). A trait of their breed is the very high prey drive/chase instinct which makes sense as they have incredible eye sight and are very fast, hence them being used for racing. Now, as owners we are aware of our dog's prey drive & speed so always ensure to keep him on a lead and only off lead in enclosed areas. We are also mindful of cats, squirrels and small fluffy dogs when out and about with him. In my opinion, that is what a good owner should do. If we didn't pay close enough attention and our greyhound got the neighbors' cat when out on a walk then I wouldn't blame him or the breed, i'd blame us, the owners.

Where are you getting your figures from though?

Because the issue with attributing deaths to pit bulls is that it also includes dogs that look like pit bulls to whoever is identifying them... which isn’t that straightforward.

People breed pitbulls certain characteristics, mainly size and strength. Then similarly irresponsible people buy them specifically for those characteristics. Unfortunately a lot of those people aren’t very good dog owners, and large powerful dog + irresponsible owner = trouble.

Having owned staffies myself and my parents before me I can say I’ve never had the slightest problem and neither did they. I’ve never seen the slightest hint of aggression out of mine and that includes with my DS who grew up with two.

It really isn’t a dog’s fault if humans treat it badly or want it as a status dog.

Is it something to do with the shape of the head and jaw? I can't remember where I picked this up, but I have the idea that once a "bulldog" type locks its jaws onto a bite, it's almost impossible for them to release their hold. It's what they were bred to do - hang on till the bull dies. The story I've picked up is that they need to have their jaws broken (ie that probably means killing the dog) to get them to release their bite. It may be an urban myth, but if it is true, then perhaps they do so much damage because they quite literally crush and suffocate their bite victims in one massive bite.

There is actually no such breed as a pit bull though is there? A “pitbull type” is a dog which has certain attributes that fit the “type”. A “pitbull” isn’t an actual breed.

I don’t know, I find dogs fascinating and I love Staffies etc but in my work I go around lots of houses. In our city the new “tough dog” is the American bulldog. I’ve seen loads of them walking around. One belongs to an old lady and she told me the dog was housebound as it recently killed a small dog. This dog has not been brought up to be aggressive, she dotes on it.
Another American bulldog belonging to a family was put down after taking the head off another dog. Another one seemed fine, I used to pet it when I went in but I was always a bit wary of it, something in its mannerisms made me nervous but I tried not to show it. The bloke told me it was a lovely dog with not s bad bone in its body. Weeks later he was having corrective surgery as his arm was torn to bits by said dog.

I think it's more the physical attributes of a breed than the personality/behaviour attributes that mean bull type dogs cause a lot more damage when they do attack.
I have a jack Russell, she's a twat, quite frankly, and I've successfully trained other breeds, but never had the issues I've had with this little shit! (I love her really!) I had two gsd's and they were fantastic dogs, much easier to train and maintain than one small JRT! However if something had gone wrong with a gsd, I'd have been severely injured, if not killed, simply due to their size and strength. A JRT, injuries sure, but I'd be able to defend myself far better. Being totally honest, if I had to, I'd say my JRT is more likely to attack than either gsd ever was.
I do think bull breeds get bad press though, and that bred and brought up correctly they are lovely dogs - but - you should never trust any dog 100% no matter what breed - they're animals at the end of the day, and they don't have the same 'rules' we do. They sort out problems between themselves using (for want of a better term) physical aggression, and they read each other and react accordingly. So many people don't know or understand signs from a dog that all isn't well and then things go wrong. A dog will always react like a dog.

I think it’s a myth that bull breeds lock their jaws. It’s not possible for them to lock. They do however have a ridiculously strong bite and I’ve known a bloke take a metal wedge out with him when he walks his dog as he says he’d need it if the dog decided to bite anything. It’s scary.

I remember reading once that a bull breed tends to have a bite 10x stronger than that of a German shepherd

My sister owns a staffie who adores children. My sister is a good dog owner and I trust the dog’s personality as much as I trust any dog with my children - they are not left alone together, children are stopped from shrieking around her, she isn’t allowed to lick their faces or jump up etc. But as she’s a staffie the fact is that if she does something totally out of character, as any dog can, then she is built in such a way with such a strong jaw that the outcome would be more serious than some other dogs. As a consequence, I am much more watchful with her.

That of course doesn't explain why they bite in the first place. Again, I can't substantiate this statement but a vet friend told me that the dog which causes most bites (of the non-fatal variety so they don't make headlines) is the labrador. Partly due to the sheer number of them, I expect, but also because it's a dog many families have, and it's usually unsupervised kids who get bitten. Only dog that's ever bitten me was my Gran's spoiled and unruly minature poodle, who took offence at my toddler niece having lots of attention and went for me. He didn't ever try that again... even stupid apricot poodles that weigh 8lb can bite.....

“There is actually no such breed as a pit bull though is there?”

Depends which kennel club you go with...

But that’s kind of my point, breed traits aren’t passed on by looking a certain way. A lab boxer cross could look very much like a pit bull - but they’d not inherit behavioural traits.

So stats for pit bull deaths include any breed or cross that looks vaguely that shape.

The Kennel Club UK does not recognise Pit Bull Terriers as a breed. They are not shown at Crufts and they are bred by people who want a dog with aggressive characteristics that most dog owners don’t want. Therefore they are owned and bred by idiots and please don’t refer to them as a breed.

Also posters are confusing them with Staffordshire Bull Terriers that are a recognised breed and are the “nanny” dogs of the past. Of course this is wrong because no dog should aggressively or passively be expected to guard anyone. However Staffordshire Bull terriers are perfectly good family pets when bred responsibly and cared for responsibly.

No real dog lover should ever own a pit bull terrier and they have not been bred responsibly.

Just to add, I have been attacked by two dogs in my life. One was a German shepherd (my own). He was a rescue dog and had been abused and neglected before I got him. He was fine for years and then all of a sudden he went for me with no provocation at all. I had to lock myself in the bathroom and call for help or I honestly believe he would have killed me.

The other was a Yorkshire terrier. My fault, I was a kid and went to stroke it without asking. Went for my hand and I got a nasty bite. If that had been a bull breed I may have lost my hand.

I’ve had two pits. They were the best most intelligent dogs I’d ever had. One of them was scared of the next door neighbours cat. The never taught each other. Never had an aggressive moment out of each one. They both used to sit in my dressing gown pockets when they were very tiny.

I miss them both dearly and if I could have another I would.

**fought

Border Collies were bred to herd, we're not surprised when pet Collies herd the cats and the kids. Retrievers, well they retrieve, Newfoundlands will plunge into any water given half a chance yet we're denying that dogs bred to protect and defend will have a tendency to display those traits, and not always in appropriate circumstances (see collie rounding up toddlers / retriever bringing dirty socks to visitors). bonkers

It's like humans who have a violent or aggressive parent. They may not automatically be violent and with the right upbringing and boundaries they are not, but without they are more dispositioned to be violent.

So I'd say most pit bulls do not attack, but those who do cause a lot of damage. Whereas an aggressive chihuahua would likely leave scars, they'd be struggling to kill you.

My friend had the loveliest of Rotties and another hand a really nasty YT. These things are more complex than anything.

The breed I've seen be most aggressive on a wide range though was a Staffie. Known about 3 personality and 2 were pretty aggressive and the other neither friendly or aggressive. But if we have our lab out and about they are the breed most likely to bark at him or bare teeth at him.

@CantBelieveImHere I can't believe any owner who isn't an asshole would explain away injuries.
Clearly the owners didn't train them well.

@Jamsangwich no dog can lock their jaw. Staffordshire Bull Terrier's have a very strong jaw, but you can break fights up.

When buying these dogs you do have to be careful. Mine were both bought as they were bred for temperament and health. Both are loving family dogs, but I keep a very close eye when they are around my DSS.