To think it’s not just the owner, sometimes it’s the breed?

[StickyBlisteredAnus]

I’m a dog lover, I love all dogs especially big working breeds.

In my life I’ve had German shepherds, Rottweilers, Labrador’s and spaniels. I was always of the opinion that it’s the owner and not the breed.

But, why are there so many deaths related to pit bulls? I get the argument that pit bull type dogs tend to be owned by wrong uns so more likely to be trained to be aggressive. Ok. I also get the argument that a pit bull attack is more likely to be fatal than a spaniel attack. Fine.

But look at the statistics. Over 200 deaths related to pit bulls over a 13 year stretch in the USA alone. Most of them seemingly unprovoked. The next breed to be accountable for the most human deaths was the Rottweiler with around 40 deaths. The majority of these deaths were related to dogs which had been trained as protection dogs or were provoked.

Doberman’s had less than 15 deaths which all of them relating to unique circumstances (previously abused, trained protection dogs, one was a dog who killed its owner during an epileptic fit).

So why the huge difference with pit bulls? A lot of the pit bull deaths were caused by family dogs with no previous history of aggression.

I’m starting to change my mind. Maybe sometimes it IS the breed?

@Jamsangwich that is complete and utter rubbish. There's not a dog breed on earth that can lock its jaws.

My worst bite came from a Yorkie who was a nasty little bastard and very nearly put my eye out.

I am saying if a breed was bred to do a specific high energy job, then they are not going to do well with a 20-30 minute walk round a park every day. They need a lot of physical exercise and mental stimulation, and that makes them poor pets for most families. Unfortunately these are also the breeds that tend to get popular and are bought purely on looks.

Oh and if a bigger dog had done that I'd very likely either be dead or badly injured.

I wish we didn't get so caught up on breeds and forget that dogs are simply animals... No matter the breed, there's always a risk! Even with brilliant owners unpredictable and surprising behaviours can happen.

Just like all animals.

The pit bull breed was literally created to fight and kill other dogs and animals. It has been bred into them. Of course that doesn't mean every pb will attack someone, but it does mean they could at the drop of a hat, no matter how calm and good tempered they usually are. They're unpredictable like every other animal with the added problem of having violence bred into them. Of course owners make a difference too tho, I imagine a mistreated pb will be more likely to revert to its aggressive instincts.

I’m baffled that the ‘lock jaw’ myth is still floating around! Is it a deadbolt lock or a chain we’re talking here?

Do you have a link to your statistics OP? Because they can’t be per population of breed. American Pit Bull terriers are immensely popular in the US so of course they’d be high up in the bite list. However it doesn’t mean they’re anymore aggressive than any other breed. It needs to be in context of ‘per 100,000’ or something.

It’s always the owner, never the breed. Although it can also be the breeding. Some people have no qualms breeding unsuitable dogs from bitches and dogs that should never be bred from. I find small dogs to have more of a tendency to be aggressive and I think that’s entirely down to owners “oooooh muffinbooboo is so so CUTE oh look at him growling cheeky monkey” attitude.

Also, take Staffys in the U.K. for example. Popular generally in certain areas. I know some of these people can value exercise of pet lowly, food quality, vet care etc. Making for an unhappy unhealthy dog. A recipe for disaster in some cases.

b0bb1n

But your point makes no sense. YES they were bred to be capable of fighting other dogs. But they were also bred to not attack humans so that it was easy to break up fights as and when required.

“The pit bull breed was literally created to fight and kill other dogs and animals. It has been bred into them.”

Well they’ve also been bred to not bite humans even if they’re already fighting...

But mainly the issue is that traits bred into a breed can’t be present just by looking like one...

These two dogs, one is a Pitbull, one is a cross of completely different breeds - if they bit someone, I bet good money they’d both be described as Pitbull types.

Especially given that people aren’t good at recognising breeds, I know an owner of a harlequin Great Dane, she’d have a fair amount of savings if she got a pound every time someone thought it was a Dalmatian... and that’s not the weirdest one I’ve come across.

Collies are bred to round up sheep. Sometimes they round up chickens or small children.
Gundogs are bred to retrieve. Sometimes they carefully retrieve stuff you've just chucked in the bin.
Greyhounds are bred to chase and kill hares. Sometimes they chase and kill cats.
Gripping dogs are bred to fight and kill their own species. It has taken many decades to get members of a social species which had evolved to co-operate nicely with each other, to automatically want to kill each other. Sometimes they kill children.

@b0bb1n so was my jack Russel but it hardly means he's a rampaging savage.

(rampaging idiot more like!)

First, yes there is bad breeding, 2nd yes there are bad owners but lets be realistic, A dog as been bred over the centruries wuth certain characteristics to make it suitable for the work it is intended to do. Retrieve, guard, BULL BAIT. Some dogs are less trainable, Some the instincts are too strong. I had a dalmation, a carriage dog, favourite activity , following my tractor. Collies will herd up children and ducks, and occasionally nip heels. Good owners should choose a dog for its breed characteristics. How many of these jobs involve being patient and loving with children? Gun dogs come to mind, why? because of the job they were bred to do. Of course everyone knows exceptions, but you are weighting the dice

More factors at play than simply breed v owner..

• We have made 'type' illegal here, there are many dogs that fall into the 'type' category, and they could be crossbreeds of perfectly legal breeds, Staffie x labrador is very easily a 'type' dog.

*By labelling certain breeds inherently dangerous we have made them desireable - in 1991, there were no Tosas, Filas or Presa's in the UK. There are now. There are also now more pitbull types than there were pre the ban, and in part thats due to them being desirable to the wrong people.

*Medium sized, short haired, cheap to feed, easy to train, intimidates people by its appearance.. is always going to make a dog appeal to low income, low education, young people who feel insecure in their own communities - this is why 'type' dogs are much more likely to be owned by people who end up being irresponsible owners.

*Looking at serious incidences and deaths... you will not find a single one where one or more of the following factors was not at play:

• Dogs actual owner not present
• Dog purchased in a pub/dodgy sales
• Dog purchased to be a guard dog/intimidate people
• Dog purchased to fight
• Dog left unsupervised with child
• Dog known to be a risk with children
• Dogs history unknown
• Dog not used to children
• Dog left in frightening/scary situation (fireworks going off, alone with screaming newborn baby, without its actual owner, with drunk people)
• Dog severely stressed
• Dog owned by or in care of drug users

Incidences off the top of my head have involved:

Pitbull type
Husky/malamute type
American Bulldog type
Staffy
JRT
Rottie type

The common denominator is always, humans. Not one single incident has occurred where an adult human did not make a very stupid or wantonly negligent decision.

Leave a boy in a caravan with a big dog, unsupervised whilst adults get pissed elsewhere.

Leave a little girl hugging a frightened pitbull, on New Years Eve, knowing he's been aggressive to children before, AND hes terrified of fireworks, whilst the care giver gets wasted on drugs.

Leave children with a rottie bought to guard, tied up in the yard, knowing that dog is not good with children.

Leave a newborn baby screaming in a room upstairs in a pub, with the window opening onto the roof open, where two rotties live, who are both aggressive to people and unfamiliar with babies, whilst their actual owners are away...

Take on a bulldog mix from a rescue having been told hes not at all good with children, leave him unsupervised with a child you have lied to the rescue about not having!

Invite your sister and her toddler and baby into your already full home, with a rescue dog you've not had long who is unknown with kids, and unfamiliar with these three newcomers. House full of stress.. go to work and leave Mum to leave the kids unsupervised with the dog whilst she showers...

These are ALL real, headline making cases where kids died because adults made stupid choices and took known risks.

Too right OP, dogs like pit bulls and Stafford Dobermans etc are BRED for their aggression - their fighting/ guarding skills etc. But their owners always make excuses I've heard them all, including 'loyal' as a valued trait - yes loyal to you - doesn't include innocent strangers or other dogs and cats who can be attacked and killed. I've known a few pets KILLED by staffies.

I think the owners are just selfish fuckers, who don't care that their dog is capable easily of killing another animal or child

The reason that "bull breed type" dogs appear to be responsible for the majority of attacks are that "bull breed type" takes into account over 18 different breeds of dog, plus all the mixed breed ones who look like a bull type.

Yes large and powerful dogs if they attack will do more damage. Of course they will, because they're bigger and more powerful. It's the equivalent of saying you're more likely to be killed if you're hit by a pick up truck than a smart car.

But people see "bull breed" and assume it's a breed when it isn't.

Boxers count as bull type breeds for example. We have a staff/boxer cross and because somebody reported us for having a pit she had to be tested by a vet to ensure she wasn't.

There's a lot of media assumptions and ignorance around the breeds involved which doesn't help the situation.

Oh and in response to a pp, our dog grieved when our cat was killed. She pawed at the back door every time it rained for months (because he used to come to the door when it was raining) and howled and howled when he didn't come.

So aye, you do get the dickheads who take on a bull breed for status I don't deny that, but assuming a dog is aggressive because of the breed it is isn't very clever.

havent read the whole thread. I think its a combination sometimes. plus humans have all different personalities (good or bad). I`m sure dogs are the same!

Looking at serious incidences and deaths... you will not find a single one where one or more of the following factors was not at play
And a long list of factors.

None of which applied in this case in the US. Child in childminder's arms, two trusted dogs raised as family pets since puppyhood.

Well they’ve also been bred to not bite humans even if they’re already fighting...
Really? That totally explains why, when I (stupidly) stuck my hand into a fray to haul out my idiot dog, the Staffie (very closely related to the pit bull, bred for the same task...) who was also involved latched onto my hand and bit with full force. Dogs are not stupid: they know when what they have in their mouths isn't 'dog'. There are plenty of cases where pit-bulls and related breeds have caused serious damage to human beings.

There are loads of 'bull breed' dogs out there - but there are also loads of assorted spaniels and labrador 'types' out there too. They are very rarely implicated in fatalities (I'm not saying never, because sometimes they are).

Breeds have different characteristics. While every dog is different, on average the members of some breeds display more aggression than do the members of others. And it's all down to nurture: nature plays a massive part as well and to deny that is to fly in the face of the whole reason different breeds were developed in the first place.

Let's face it, no farmer goes looking for a husky to herd sheep, and nobody who wants a competent gundog decides that their best bet is to go to the local rescue and come home with a JRT.

It's really NOT all in how you raise them

*NOT all down to nurture.
Aargh.

Not all small dog owners allow poor behaviour. I have a shih tzu and two chihuahuas, my fluffy boy is 14 and is as gentle as anything and is fine with anything the kids are doing, they nap together, he likes to lie with his head on them and be cuddled by everyone. Anyone can hand feed him and he knows not to take food from anyone unless they tell him 'nicely'

The chihuahuas are only just 1 so still puppies but they're learning. They're naturally snappy dogs but they know that if they start growling or otherwise show aggression then they go into the crate until they're calm. And now they're getting to the point where when they're bothered by guests they do that on their own. Likewise the kids are learning how to pet and approach them so as not to scare them into aggressive stances. Because the dogs are so small they're very anxious and when they're spooked they'll attack and I don't want that to happen. Thankfully they seem to naturally follow my old boy in terms of hand feeding and he's great at keeping them 'under control' he's usually not fussed by what they're doing but one bark from him has them on their backs and submitting instead of climbing on him

I wouldn't want any dog that has the locking jaw thing.

I think it's a combination. A bit like nature vs. Nurture.

Dogs are, by nature, a product of selective breeding so it stands to reason that certain breeds will have different temperaments. Added to this, pit bulls are often used in dog fighting and selected for aggression. They are then bred from and the aggression continues down the generations.

I say by nature, it's actually the opposite of that is t it? 🤦🏻‍♀️

“That totally explains why, when I (stupidly) stuck my hand into a fray to haul out my idiot dog, the Staffie (very closely related to the pit bull, bred for the same task...) who was also involved latched onto my hand and bit with full force.“

It explains it just as well as when collies don’t make good sheepdogs because they follow through and attack the sheep...

Dog breeding isn’t an exact science, not all traits are inherited and when they are not always in the way they’re intended by the human.

None of that though addresses the big issue that is breed identification with pitbulls, they’re not AKC recognised, nobody has pedigrees and lots of non bull breed crosses come out looking enough like one that people assume they are pitbulls.

@WiddlinDiddlin, brilliantly said. More care needs to be given into who can own dogs and having owners prove that they can care and train them properly and if they can't they should be removed to prevent the situations you describe.

And I am well aware accidents happen, but why increase the risk and allow people who can't take care of themselves attempt to take care of an animal that needs to be trained and taken care of properly to be 'safe'.