To be disappointed in hearing that many UK woman drink during pregnancy [shock]

[Leati]

Yesterday, I was on a thread when some of the women started questioning about US policy on drinking alcohol during pregnancies. One of the women had heard that if you have a glass of wine, you could be arrested. I assured her that wasn't true but there was chance that if you were visibly pregnant that the restaurant or bar might exercise their right to refuse service. And if a pediatrician became suspicious of drug or alcohol abuse, they could have the baby?s blood tested at birth. If the baby is found to have these in their blood, the child will be taken away. Another woman pitched that she found it disturbing that restaurants had signs warning pregnant women.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. These women seemed to believe it was actually okay to drink during their pregnancies. Hadn't they heard of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. So today, I did a little research and was shocked to learn that it is a big problem in the UK and that there is little education about it there.

Women who are angry over mothers choosing the bottle over nursing are damaging their children by drinking alcohol. This is not minor damage, in some case it is equivalent to severe mental retardation and in others it less obvious cognitive problems. Overall nearly 10% of babies born in the UK are suffering from some sort of cognitive problems directly related to alcohol exposure in the womb.

What broke my heart the most is that I have been on this site and I know that the mothers on this site care so much for their children. That while I may not always agree with everything said and our perspectives are not always the same, that we share a common love for our children. So I felt compelled to start this thread and share the information. I hope that you will share it, with your loved ones and it may spread.

I have attached some sites so you can research this yourself. These sites are both from the UK and the US.

www.fasaware.co.uk/

www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series2/fetal_alcohol_syndro mfaspregnancydrinkinglearning_difficulties.shtml

www.healthychildrenproject.org/glossa ry/

well can we just get another 100 posts in quickly and then this thread will stop.
hooray
tis doing my head in (must be the 1 glass of champagne my mum drank at a wedding when pg with me)

and i never got "tipsy" when pg. but i did drink in the 2nd half of both pregnancies, not a lot, the odd small glass of wine. and i still haven't seen anything to suggest that that isn't absolutely fine.

and hopefully it will get to 1000 before leati wakes up... california, -8hours, it is 6am there now, quick, everyone, post, quick,

quick

she has got it saved on her comp tho, or do we just wanna stop the convo

My personal gut feeling, for me, is that 1-2 units once or twice a week is too much. Another (bigger, taller, for example) woman might well be able to drink that much and it to have no effect. I am nearly 32 weeks and have had about 6-7 small glasses of wine over the course of this pg, with total abstention in the first 20 weeks interrupted only by about a quarter of a glass of champagne on my 30th birthday at 12 weeks - that makes it roughly 1 small glass every 2 weeks in the second half of pg - which, tbh, I simply can't see doing any harm.

As I understand it, part of the 'no safe level in pg' is basically saying there is no level which is known to be safe for all women. I think that's a reasonable point. However, I do very much dislike the underlying misogyny in the assumption that women will as a rule not be able to figure out where moderation starts and ends. I am also not going to stand for being called, implicitly or explicitly, an irresponsible mother who is taking selfish risks with the child she conceived after 2 consecutive mcs.

Oh, and another point - when not pg I enjoy a glass of wine every few evenings. Several days before I missed my period I went off it, couldn't stand the thought of it. The desire for a drink only started to return towards the end of the first trimester (and then I still waited a few weeks). I also enjoy a coffee or two a day usually, but there have been a couple of periods in this pg where I have completely and utterly and inexplicably gone off it. For these reasons I firmly believe (like oliveoil, I think, towards the beginning of the thread) that my body steers me pretty effectively away from whatever might cause a problem at a particular stage in pg.

I've just read (well, pretty much) the whole thread. Blimey, I need a drink now.

Hey, Leati - your article...good luck with that. Do let us know if it gets published, won't you?

I think all pregnant women should be made to live in America because it is obviously safer being pregnant there what with the no drinking. Then I think all people in USA with children should be forced to send them to the UK once born because it is safer here - what with the guns and not to mention tornado's.

Not too difficult is it?

There was a good program on R4 Food Programme. It was really pragmatic. It's a bad idea to get drunk during pg. It's been advised to keep alcohol to a minimum during pg for decades, certainly since the 1930s. I haven't read all of Leati's posts, but I would be quite upset if I were dumped with editing her stuff. What's the point in posting on MN if you know all the answers before you start?

Isn't it also rather dishonest not to let people know immediately what your motives are, rather than winding people up a lot?

Maybe now would be a good time to say that while pregnant with me my mother had a diet of - almost exclusively ? cream label stout, as her morning sickness was so bad she could keep very little down.

So in untero I most definitely exposed to alcohol. Lots of it. And while I'm not suggesting that's an ideal scenario by any means, it seemed to do me no harm whatsoever.

I was born a healthy 7lb 2oz, and, not wishing to brag but wanting to add a dose of reality for Leati, am a pretty well balanced individual with no obvious defects, and a certified IQ of 160 (Mensa). I was also for some time a semi-professional trumpeter (seriously)... etc.

I'm possibly a bit on the short side, but suspect that might have something to do with the fact that my dearest dad was only 5ft5in and we're a whole family of hobbits.

More perspective and less hysteria would help the US on a whole variety of issues if you ask me...

Personally, I'll take the RCOG as my guide for most things pregnancy related as they have some of the best medical minds in the world in their organsiation.

DB
xx

Maybe now would be a good time to say that while pregnant with me my mother had a diet of - almost exclusively ? cream label stout, as her morning sickness was so bad she could keep very little down.

So in untero I most definitely exposed to alcohol. Lots of it. And while I'm not suggesting that's an ideal scenario by any means, it seemed to do me no harm whatsoever.

I was born a healthy 7lb 2oz, and, not wishing to brag but wanting to add a dose of reality for Leati, am a pretty well balanced individual with no obvious defects, and a certified IQ of 160 (Mensa). I was also for some time a semi-professional trumpeter (seriously)... etc.

I'm possibly a bit on the short side, but suspect that might have something to do with the fact that my dearest dad was only 5ft5in and we're a whole family of hobbits.

More perspective and less hysteria would help the US on a whole variety of issues if you ask me...

Personally, I'll take the RCOG as my guide for most things pregnancy related as they have some of the best medical minds in the world in their organsiation.

DB
xx

Sorry didn't mean to post that twice - I think my computer has FAS - our techy had a beer while assembling it, I've heard...

and just to get this to 1000 as quick as poss...its not just the RCOG that says 1 - 2 units a week. Isn't the Royal College of Midwives of the same opinion? The NCT? Breastfeeding Network? i could be wrong on that, i can't be arsed to check my facts but i remember checking numerous sources to verify my desperate desire for the odd bit of booze.
i have a friend who is furious with me for drinking whilst breastfeeding and everything that is wrong with my baby (a cold, colic when he was littler,) he insists must be cos i drink some wine with dinner (and the odd pint when out admittedly) it drives me crazy, cos he has done, oh, exactly NIL research into it, and i have checked!
as i've boasted before my boy is walking at 9 mths and has 6 words. now, the research does indeed suggest that heavy drinking can possibly lead to impaired motor neuron development, but my son blatantly doesn't have that. it is not the reason he wakes at 5 bloomin 30 every morning!
could it be the 7 e's i take every weekend?!?
hope this opens enough of a can of worms to get to 1000 posts

my mother drank during pregnancy and now I work for the circus as a spiderbaby

Actually Gizmo - being pedantic, the UK is no longer out of step with other countries, as it too now recommends total abstinance.

Having said that, part of the point leati made was that it was "socially" acceptable to drink (I nearly typed "think! ) a small amount while pregnant.

Whatever the guidleines might be in Friance, I know that the French are never ones to follow the "law" just because it is the law, so I would storngly doubt that many slvishly follow this guideline. Perahps gglimpopo or one of the other French mumsnetters could comment?

ALos, one of the known risks of pregancny is DVT? It could even be argued that having the odd drink could prtect against DVT . But then, that doesn't count, as we are just walking wombs, and the health of the mother doesn't count!

I drink straight from the bar faucet

I am concerned that my womb does not walk, no matter how much I talk to it, coax it, cajole it etc. my efforts are in vain.

try bribing it with a G&T

Indeed PB, hence my use of the past tense..

must make the tea.

I've just realised that I will be out when she wakes up and miss her all over again.

ok, I am going to have a stab at this.
Why is leati having difficulty understanding others point of view, when according to her, the evidence is very strong?
I laboured through a lot of the links this morning and I did not see once piece of evidence that showed that 1-2 units once or twice a week was harmful. Why, therefore have i come to that conclusion when leati's view is the opposite?
I would suggest that leati probably does not have a scientific background and is unable to read research with a critical eye. Why do I say this? Simple. Because most of the references were opinion pieces, not solid research. Had there been one single gold standard piece of research we may have all had to question our opinion. But if you cannot tell the difference between, say, a meta-analysis, systematic review and a single case study then you cannot properly evaluate the position. When reading research papers, one should never look at the abstract, discussion or conclusion because they are prone to bias: the only way to read critically is by only reading the materials, methods and results. Any research that is based on a questionnairre (as many of the studies are) makes the assumption that women will not lie: I would challenge that strongly, particularly if an alcoholic, the mother is unlikely to actually know how much she has drunk.
For those without a scientific background, how do we make a judgement that alcohol is safe? We make that judgement depending on what is recommended in our country of origin- we have lived here all of our lives and have experience of what to trust and what not to trust.
Leati wants to know why would we take the risk? WEll, if she truly is a teetotaller she obviously does not understand the pleasure of a glass of wine. It is a natural food with a lot of goodness in it, it tastes good (and makes food taste better) and is relaxing. I am sure no-one commenting on this post drinks to get intoxicated whilst pregnant.
Why do all these people say there is no safe limit? To avoid litigation, of course. Just like innumerable other foodstuffs in pregnancy.
And please don't be sensitive to criticism when your opening gambit is to say that all mumsnetters who drink are bad parents- it is extremely hypocritical.
You say you have read the research on gluten and decided that 5 months was ok despite some pieces saying it is not- how can you criticise us for evaluating the literature on alcohol?
The other glaring problem with leati's evaulation of the position is that the incidence of FASD in this country should be much, much higher if we are to believe her analysis. The fact that the incidence is pretty close to the incidence of alcoholism suggests that it is, indeed heavy drinking that is the problem, not moderate and the numerous comments in the thread about our mothers being encouraged to drink should mean that at least 10% of us should be suffering from FASD. That is patently not true.
Reading the literature will 'prove' both one viewpoint and the absolute opposite depending on the reader's bias; unless that reader has the ability to be objective, which I'm afriad Leati i do not believe you have the ability to be.
Sorry for long post

I am surprised that anyone is surprised that this somewhat puritanical post is coming from a person who belongs to a country known for it's extremes of everything: of course you would have to ban alcohol in the US because there is no such thing as moderation. As a concept it is almost entirely absent from American rhetoric in almost any facet of life.
Added to the fact that America political discourse has a deep vein of paternalism runningthrough it their views regarding this issue are hardly surprising, funny for a country that fails to provide free access to healthcare for many of its own citizens, including many unborn babies.

And I am long-time married to an American so I can say this with some authority.

well done suey2 - I've been trying to say that all the way through, you put it so much better!