Not to involve the police in school squabbles

[Fuckofffortnite]

I was chatting to a police officer this weekend about how there seems to be an increasing amount of parents reporting kids to them for ridiculous things, examples he gave we’re as follows:
Trying to get a 10yr old a criminal record for stealing because he took something from their child’s pencil case
Trying to have a child expelled from school for swearing at their child over face time whilst on the school bus (not even at the same school as each other)
Trying to get an 11yr old expelled from school for playing rough with their son, wrestling etc.
Has parenting gone mad? Where is the common sense and are the police not busy enough?
Apparently if parents are not happy with how schools react to incidents then the next step is the police, is that right?

@LagunaBubbles
But there are usually two sides to a story!
Most disagreements / altercations are not bullying!
What on earth do people consider bullying? Surely it’s a pattern, build up and there is history.
If little Jonny snatches a ball off little Peter and Peter gets upset and snatches it back and pulls little Jonny about a little it’s not friggin bullying for heavens sake!
And there are two sides and it makes sense.

You are minimising bullying by sticking to the "2 sides story". I'm guessing your children have never been the victims of bullying obviously.

Agree with the possible minimising. I received a call from School two years, daughter was year 8. An incident had happened on the bus, a few girls were shaken inc my daughter but it was being dealt with and not to worry. Wouldn’t disclose more.

Daughter returned from school, a boy had pulled out a handmade knife and threatened some kids on the bus and stabbed a bus seat several times.

Phoned the school for an update obviously worried about the next school day. They had warned him, that’s it, I therefore phoned the Police, local officer turned up and said it’s just boys being boys. I hit the roof, phoned the bus company whilst PO was still there, they excluded him for an investigation. I asked the PO for the complaints process (I know what it is anyway) he then attended the school next morning and the boys locker and bag was searched and the knife found. He was excluded.

Boys will be boys my arse!

Most disagreements / altercations are not bullying!

And your evidence for this is what?

Wrong @ LagunaBubbles
Very wrong, my ds struggled for 2yrs with one boy, he thankfully left the school.
But I do always try and be objective about what they tell me goes on at school.
Conflict resolution and resilience is also very important.
Recently ds fell over and one of the girls kicked him when he was on the floor, the back story was he had grabbed her pencil case from her whilst walking past and ran off with it, slipped and it got muddy. Tbh, I could have complained about the kick but he himself said it was like she got instant karma, and he laughed it off because he knew he was also in the wrong.
School is where kids should be able to make mistakes and learn and such low grade issues dealt with accordingly.
I suppose I struggle with parents who can’t seem to be objective over the little things and help their kids learn.

And my evidence is experiencing life in general!
So everyone who you disagree with is bullying you?

Also as a parent I am very aware of the drama kids add to their reports of the low grade altercations, and how they can miss out the bits that they chucked into a scenario. Minor detective work unravels this usually can turn something that sounds awful into something more reasonable. My kids are no exception to this.

everyone who you disagree with is bullying you?

Don't be so ridicolous, I never said that. But I do know bullying is rife in schools, and they are generally appalling at dealing with it. Which is having enormous consequences on the mental health of children. And yes parents of bullies and schools are the ones that always seem to trot out the "2 sides to every story." line.

@LagunaBubbles
Well I am the parent of a child who has been bullied and of a child who has been accused of bullying and neither are nice places to be.
The non existent punch was believed to the hilt by the other parents.
Perhaps CCTV all over schools is a must now to stop the awful bullying and the false accusations?

I agree that CCTV is a good idea but sadly I don't think it will stop the bullying. My middle DS was bullied physically and mentally. Currently my 11 year old is awaiting a CAMHS appointment for issues including self harm caused by a bully. It's never been physical with my son, it's all name calling and threats, and thanks to my local authority having a no exclusion policy has been allowed to be continued by the school. In fact it wasn't until the Police were speaking to the transition classes for secondary school a few weeks ago and the bully asked them "what do you do if you don't like a wee prick" (and later whispering in my sons ear that was for him) that the school seem to have embarrassed into admitting there aren't 2 sides and had been giving the bully the "benefit of the doubt".

Fofffortnite,

I'm reading between the lines here, but it's sounding like you DC has been accused of being a bully, and maybe a parent has gone to the police about it?

Do you really have a police friend, or have you been involved in this scenario personally?.

I'm getting the old Mumsnet ' red flags' with your insistence on 'rough and tumble' being totally acceptable, and that you appear to be minimising bullying.

I think the problem a lot of parents have , is that bullying is a very serious issue that is very grudgingly dealt with by schools who don't like to admit they have a problem, and is dismissed by other parents who insist their little shits are 'just being kids' and indeed..just playing ' rough and tumble '.

Actually no, not at all, I have lots of police friends but this was someone I’d not met before who works in a very rural area. It was a curious topic of conversation as I could see both sides and had kind of experienced both sides but minus the police involvement, although I could see how it could have escalated to that due to how the parents reacted. When my son was being repeatedly bullied both physically and verbally over the two years it had never occurred to me to call the police, although I probably would have it it had continued up into the teen years and got any more serious.

CCTV is useful - don't disagree. But in my experience schools can use it how they like because due to data protection no one can actually watch it to verify what school says is true.

In my situation I had school tell me they'd use cctv to show my son was lying (despite 2 teachers being present who didn't disagree with what had happened). He'd done nothing wrong bad just been upset and hiding under hjs blazer during lunchtime. Of course when I said I'd love to see it thanks because then we could work out why son would tell me something like that that wasn't true I was denied due to data protection.
Then with knife incident they wouldn't even discuss cctv and police didn't check it even though it would confirm events as being what school originally told me and ds reported to police or one of the 3 following versions school had told me in 1 phone call.

For me it's about accountability and services working together to keep pupils safe. But that doesn't happen as schools hold all the power. Then when pupils are too scared to attend they can prosecute parents.

Us and our children can never be right even when victims due to a failing system.

there will always be some contact involved in sport and play

Don't disagree, but there are a substantial number of children who don't like their personal space invaded, and who are brushed off as odd because play fighting is supposed to be good for them. Each to their own, but I can't imagine anything less fun as an adult, and it was exactly the same for me as a child. Just saying that in a lot of cases it's used to minimise what is better termed as abuse when it's one child doing it to another against their will lots and lots of times.

And 11yr old boys who play a lot of rugby do quite often tackle each other to the ground at break time with no malice at all, I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but it happens, my ds’s school trousers are proof to that many days! The lesson would for them to learn to keep it on the pitch and / or only do it when it’s absolutely ok with the other kid / make it clear if he doesn’t want it to happen.

@youarenotkiddingme
That sounds utterly shit of the school.
There is no middle ground between schools covering arses and the police which are geared up to deal with adults. The kids are learning nothing from these situations other than the adults who should be doing things right are useless

Some shocking experiences here Sweet FA has changed since 1987 when i was going through similar at the age of 14.

It got so bad that i considered suicide to the point that had pills out on the coffee table along with a very old bottle of whisky i found in my parents drinks cabinet.

When the fuck is this decades old problem going to be solved for good?!

i say similar because no one pulled a knife out on me thankfully. Things seem to have got even worse in 30 + years.

One thing I think we can all agree on is there is still far too much victim blaming in society.

Some People don't like rough and tumble. Some do. But if someone says no to it then it stops. All this "but they didn't mean to upset them" is bollocks.
Teach your child and schools should be teaching children that no and stop mean just that.
It's not odd and kids aren't a wuss or whatever. They don't need to build more resilience because the don't like it.

Resilience isn't accepting being treated in a way you don't like.
Resilience is the ability to walk away, report as necessary and then be able to move on.

They don't need to build more resilience because the don't like it

Totally agree with this. If bullies didn't bully and make other people's lives a misery then there would be no need to be "resilient" against bullies. It's almost as if there is an implication that it's the victims fault for not being "resilient" enough in my experience from some people.

Some People don't like rough and tumble. Some do. But if someone says no to it then it stops. All this "but they didn't mean to upset them" is bollocks. Teach your child and schools should be teaching children that no and stop mean just that.
I agree - but often these kind of incidents happen when everyone is merrily playing and enjoying it, then it goes too far or there is a genuine accident. It's not always a black and white that a child said no and another carried on. We have this battle every year with Y7 and 8 boys. Loads of them really enjoy playing which involves some rough and tumble, and don't seem to know when they've gone too far. It is a constant mission to keep them settled and engaged in games etc where there is less rough play but this isn't easy (we supervise hundreds of students over a big site). We investigate any accidents or incidents thoroughly and judge each on its own merit (any history, was intentional, had they already been warned). We do find those who are quick to shout assault are ones whose children tend to go too far with other children but the parents often won't accept that.

They are culpable from the age of 10.

They can be charged for a crime and they can go to juvenile court. They cannot be detained in a youth offending faculty until 13+

I personally despair at the parents calling the police for their child having broken a door, or pushing a parent or sibling, or nicking a fiver out of their mums purse...

Those ones piss me off more than the school physical bullying ones.

Sauv don't disagree with that. But I think joining in is different. My ds plays football at lunch. He has asd and hates that it's pretty ruleless and also being touched.
He constantly moans about how people tell him off if he accidentally kicks or knocks them but they do it to him all the time.
My constant reply is that if he's accidentally doing it then he has to accept others are likely accidentally doing it and it happens in lunchtime free for all games. I tell him if he chooses to continue playing he has to accept this.

But I think games etc are different to the rough and tumble many of us mean. I don't think when someone's standing chatting and someone else instigates the bashing and banging that it is the same thing. It's not an unintended side effect of the current actions. And when a pupil doesn't like or want it their should be consequences if this has been communicated.

But I don't envy the teachers. I get fed up of hearing 1 boy moan about it daily. Can't imagine having to listen to 100's of them!

@Homemademadness
TO be fair it depends what it was - if someone has been seriously assaulted or sexually harassed for example and the school aren't reacting adequately then I think it's fine to involve the police - the law still applies within school grounds. If someone had stolen a pen from my child's pencil case or they'd had a scuffle in the playground then no absolutely not.

This exactly.

@youarenotkiddingme
That’s exactly what I mean when I say rough and tumble. The kind of things that happen at break times when kicking a ball around or playing manhunt or whatever. I have the same conversations as you about many bumps and knocks being accidental as they are when ds does it to someone else. The intent behind the action is so important I think and there seems to be a train of thought that it automatically means bullying is occurring (and this has been inferred lots on this thread too, where people feel rough and tumble masks bullying), when there is no intention to harm meant and resilience is a good skill to have, so not to take these accidents too personally but be able to make sense of it. When ds complains about so and so doing a sliding tackle at break time playing football, I don’t think omg he’s being bullied and I talk it through with him, remind him that’s part of football, remind him he doesn’t have to play and remind him of all the sliding tackles he had done over the years.
I can see that y7 and 8 boys are a bit all over the place with regulating their play, many are still quite immature but as in my ds case is the size of a 15yr old. Im constantly reminding him that he is bigger and stronger than he realises, but in his head he still likes to play like a 10yr old and some of his friends are half his size!
I too feel for teachers, especially when they have upset parents to deal with!