Not to involve the police in school squabbles

[Fuckofffortnite]

I was chatting to a police officer this weekend about how there seems to be an increasing amount of parents reporting kids to them for ridiculous things, examples he gave we’re as follows:
Trying to get a 10yr old a criminal record for stealing because he took something from their child’s pencil case
Trying to have a child expelled from school for swearing at their child over face time whilst on the school bus (not even at the same school as each other)
Trying to get an 11yr old expelled from school for playing rough with their son, wrestling etc.
Has parenting gone mad? Where is the common sense and are the police not busy enough?
Apparently if parents are not happy with how schools react to incidents then the next step is the police, is that right?

@shouldwestayorshouldwego
There was no punch
No punch at all
It was simply a bumping into each other by accident
No other incidents at all

I'd bet one of the kids in the bumping incident has a history. Even if it's not with each other one of them I bet is known as a bully or has been badly bullied so the parents are taking no risks with it happening again.

I'm being discussed as "that parent" at the school I've just removed my DS from. People think I've done it for a relatively petty reason. However, there's more than the obvious going on, plus I've seen it before so I can see exactly where it is going.

Children have the same rights not to be assaulted as adults do. If I would call the police for something that was done to me at work, I'd do the same for the same crime that was done to my child at school. A child is not going to be less traumatised by assault because it was perpetrated by another child or a group of kids.

Obviously calling the police because someone stole a pen is ridiculous for anybody but nobody does that outside of urban legend. There are very serious attacks that happen in schools and the victims experiences shouldn't be minimised just because of the aggressors age.

Fuckofffort (feels rude calling you that!)
A good outcome for us wouldn't have been prosecution. I don't think thats helpful for any 11yo. But I would have liked recognition from police and school of the devastating effects of the victims of knife crime (even if unharmed physically). So the police to at least talk to the lad and give him some idea of the consequences of knife crime etc. School to have seen my ds as a victim rather than the other lad as a special case who they needed to support massively (I heard all about how they were supporting the other family) and for school to be forced to admit it happened and be forced to be accountable to the police. Eg showing them the cctv so they couldn't change their version of events 3 times. Being forced to follow their own behaviour policies by providing police with witness statements to read (because they didn't take them) and explaining the history (this lad had strangled ds 2 weeks before and in a meeting with his HOY, me and ds about bulking I'd called 5 members of slt entered the room and the HT suggested I removed ds is I don't trust them).

The issue is I have is the lack of accountability of schools and how this can continue because the police don't also get involved.

We have a massive knife crime issue in this country and this young lad had be taught that he can carry and pull a weapon and the effect to his victim is irrelevant and he'll just get a slapped wrist.

Rant over!

I worked for youth offending team (albeit about 15 years ago) and at the time , the worst perpetrators for calling the police for minor incidents that should have been dealt with at school were (certain) schools themselves. They thought that a police officer would turn up wag the finger at the student. Instead they got arrested and charged and sucked into a criminal justice process with lifelong consequences.

It was a conplete abdication of responsibility on the part of the school and lazy and incompetent senior management.

I think a lot goes on in schools that if it happened in the workplace or in public places probably would come to police attention. A school shouldn't be an environment where physical/sexual or violent offences take place and are dealt with (or rather are not or ineffectually) by the school who have a vested interest in keeping quiet about anything that affects their reputation.
Yes of course there are the stories about police being called because of a stolen pencil but everyone agrees that's madness. But what about a pupil who deliberately and maliciously damaged school property (criminal damage), a female pupil grabbed and forcibly kissed and breast groped (sexual assault), a pupil in possession of a small quantity of cannabis resin. All three examples were dealt with internally with no police involvement (the cannabis flushed down the loo by teacher). The consequences for offenders ranging from exclusion for a week to detention.
In the 'real world' the police would be involved and offenders dealt with. I don't think the school environment should be a bubble where normal rules don't apply not least because it emboldens pupils and teaches them little about consequences of behaviour in the real world.

I think a lot goes on in schools that if it happened in the workplace or in public places probably would come to police attention.

But they're children not adults and the school are acting in loco parentis and they have a range of sanctions that quite rightly an employers doesn't.

Of course for serious matters beyond what the school can deal with, then yes the police need to be involved, but a school should have a robust enough disciplinary policy to deal with the everyday stuff.

Well I am on the fence.

Me and exh involved the police when a boy at school (year 6) tried to elbow my dd in the face by raising his elbow and slamming it into her. I know some parents feel this one incident was appropriate for the police to be involved.

However, it wasnt this once incident. Over the space of 4 years, this boy had had hold of her by her hair, thrown stuff at her, spat at her, verbally bullied her, hit her over the head with a lunch box. The school did fuck all. We moved our dd out of the school at the beginning of year 5.

6 months later, low and behold, the same little shit, was put on a managed move to our daughters new school. No one told us until he was already in and the abuse started again. 2 more incidents later I told this school to sort it or next time I would call the police. He tried to elbow her in the face, the school called me and said they would deal with it. I told them not to bother and i called the police. The police listened to the whole story, the boy received a caution and had to attend some anger managements sessions. The school still didnt really want to do much to reassure dd. They kept telling us the boy had a right to an education. We ended up having a meeting with the 2 head teacher who brought their union rep and the police.

The police officer handed the head teachers their asses, even the union rep was shaking their head at them both. The lack of documenting anything to the fact that they didnt want to put anything in place, to the fact they didnt even apologise.

In the end the boy was given a TA to supervise him at all times. He went on to serious assault another pupil.

What I am saying is to other parents we called the police because of a one off incident. It wasnt. They boy was destroying my daughters self esteem and neither scho gave a shit.

He tried it once more when she went to secondary. I went straight to the school spoke to the police officer who was attached to the school and HoY. They got the boy straight in, with his parents and warned him not to go near my dd and that if he did he would be charged again and suffer the consquences. His parents (who didnt really give a shit either) were warned he could be removed from the school if charged. He has left her alone since.

She is in year 10 and if he ever, so much as even looks at her wrong I wont hesitate to contact the police again. My daughter was becoming a shadow of herself. She is finally confident and happy. I wont let him take that from her again.

Oh and also, I come from a family if police officers. Again, just cause they think its trivial.....doesnt mean it is. It simply means they dont get it.

Obviously some parents do jump to the police. But I am betting that's not the case in most situations.

Really? No play fighting etc as kids at home?

Response to There should be no "rough and tumble" whatever that means. My DC get short shrift if if they start getting rough with each other. I would be livid if some little thug at school started trying that

I will add to my story the fact my ds attempted or was rather attempting to end his own life after this event. He was luckily stopped.
I rang him in sick to school as said I was taking him to GP due to extreme anxiety and school said and did unauthorised the absence because "he had no reason not to attend as big wouldn't be there that day"
Ds has already been referred to primary MH service for anxiety and CBT and I wanted to get GP to being forward his treatment.
School still refused to accept he had anxiety.
LA suggested Managed move as he was too anxious to attend. The school then just became very keen to get me to name a school and when I said I needed to make it sure it was the right place, accessible and had correct pastoral support - rather than just moving - they weren't helpful at all. Carried on repeating "you need to name a school"

A few months later at refusal to assess for EHCP they came as la witnesses along with the school he was managed move at. They continued to argue ds had no anxiety and it was me and even used the words "ds accused a pupil of pulling a knife on him"

As this wasn't why we were at tribunal I simply informed judge he'd been unable to attend due to extreme anxiety which had escalated to suicide attempt after the knife incident. That if they so wished to see evidence if the event I had the screenshot of what DHT had written on the student portal that he'd rang ME and told me about the incident and also written evidence they had excluded for 2 days for the incident provided by school.

I do not think police should do the schools job. Not at all. But I do think if the police and schools presented an united front and sought to deal with incidents rather than protect reputations of schools then the future of ALL pupils involved would be improved. As I realise bullies also need support as often they have difficult home lives. But support and consequence are separate entities. I don't believe one should be sacrificed for the other.

Really? No play fighting etc as kids at home?

No, not after they're toddlers. Don't tolerate it. Let it go on any longer and you've normalised it. Same with shouting back, kicking furniture, and all the things MNetters complain about. Do the job properly in the early years, and for the vast majority of children without SEN, they don't do it later on. Not a popular opinion on here but hey ho!

No, not after they're toddlers. Don't tolerate it. Let it go on any longer and you've normalised it.

What's wrong with that? Play fighting is not the same as actual fighting, if it escalates to actual fighting that's the problem. I grew up play fighting with my brother (I'm a girl), didn't turn me into a violent thug or a bully. Not comparable to kicking furniture and breaking things imo.

Even now me and DO wrestle and okay fight with each other until one of us "taps out", DD thinks it's hilarious (which it is, good fun).

*do

*DP!!! Arghh!!

When a serious incident h a taken place like a fight result in severe injury, sexual assault tune yes it's necessary

But the people that do it becuase a pen has gone missing or a bag/coat has been damaged are ridiculous

But the people that do it becuase a pen has gone missing or a bag/coat has been damaged are ridiculous

I would love to see proof that this has ever happened, based on a one off incident.

Because I would bet its rare/non existent

Op, I'd be a bit concerned that a schools liaison police officer is discussing their work with you.

The police get minor things reported to them all the time which do not meet the criminal threshold for investigation, whether it is in schools or the wider community. But that doesn't and shouldn't take away from the serious matters which need to be dealt with, and I'm a bit that your friend seems to be minimising concerns reported to police. You seem to know a lot about these incidents, which in itself is unprofessional of your friend.

I agree that tough and tumble is often physical bullying dressed up to look ok like play fighting.

My DS has repeatedly made it clear that he doesn't like it, he doesn't want to be touched only for the rubbish HoY to tell me 'boys will be boys'. He got a full 5 minutes of feminist tirade about that one.

He also confirmed that his own colleagues down grab him round the neck and throw him to the ground, and therefore why should my DS expect it to happen?

I know some people call the police for really terrible reasons (shampoo in the eyes was my favourite ever 999 call) but I think if parents have contacted them it means the school is shit and doesn't want to keep their pupils safe.

@NigellaAwsome
No you misunderstand
The police officer was passing general comment over the trend of parents reporting minor incidents (with no back stories of other incidents) and that they are not in a position to do anything about it, rather that the schools should deal with it.
The more detailed info was from things I have come to know about either first hand with my own kids or that of close friends, non of which involved the police but could have if perceived. Like when my ds was accused of punching a boy in the face by the boys parents and the were adamant that their sons account was correct, when the opposite was true and had thankfully all been watched from an upstairs classroom by a teacher. If that teacher hadn’t of seen it then my ds could have had to face the police! We rely heavily on fellow parents having some common sense.

Police forces will have a school’s policy and will let the school deal if possible if it is appropriate ( not the serious stuff). If it’s a crime it is still recorded as such, just no police action.
Both the school and the victim ( parent) have to agree it’s appropriate for the school to deal though.

Surely it depends on the seriousness of the offence not whether it happened on school grounds or not. If my child was pushed by another child or knocked down during a game or had a pen or small toy stolen then I wouldn't involve the police whether it happened at school or elsewhere. If my child was badly beaten up at school and I didn't feel they were reacting enough and particularly if I thought my child was in further danger then yes I might involve the police (just as I might if my child was beaten up off school grounds).

Not minimising at all, just as a parent of pre teens I know there are usually two sides to a story

This is the attitude I can't stand. It's this that allows blues to bully and victims to be blamed. There are never 2 sides when it comes to bullying.

Not a popular opinion on here but hey ho!

It's also not a very intelligent opinion as there's evidence for the benefits of rough play within limits. By banning it entirely you do your kids a disservice - it's also a little silly as there will always be some contact involved in sport and play.