To want to shout at my new colleague "you didn't die, if you had you wouldn't be here talking shite"

[Whatdoesitmatteranyway]

Just that.

Apparently he was in a bad accident several years ago and "died" three times.

No he didn't. We haven't the ability to resurrect people.

DH does this as well. Tells me about his friend who "died" for 10 minutes after a heart episode. I have pointed out that he can't have died and I get told that no, he did. the doctors told him.

I want to go find a plank and hit either me or him over the head with it - which ever is quickest to shut up his bollocks.

I want to get an ad campaign stating this bloody obvious point because its ridiculous the number of people who parrot it out.

The point at which we die is when the heart stops beating, the person stops breathing, and the brain shuts down which are exactly the same criteria as a cardiac arrest. The only difference between a cardiac arrest and death is the definition used by the medical staff.

When medical staff intervene with someone who has just died and try to restart their heart, it is called a cardiac arrest. If they do not succeed in restarting the heart and all resuscitation efforts are stopped, then they will pronounce the person as officially dead. In actuality, the two are the same phenomena and cardiac arrest resuscitation simply refers to the first part of death when doctors and nurses attempt to restart the heart in someone who has just died. So your colleague is right - he did die.

He was very lucky the medical team were able to bring him back. Most people who suffer cardiac arrests cannot be resuscitated. I expect the whole thing was deeply traumatic, even in retrospect, so why not let him talk about it? Why on earth be so over the top about it.

To me dead is brain dead

I don't think that's for you to decide. Certainly not for another person.

Being pedantic- he was clinically dead, but not biologically dead- they are two seperate things. So yes, he was 'dead' but not dead, dead (biologically dead).

Just a bit dead then, or just temporarily dead?

Nothing's cut and ried any more, is it? Brexit, gender fluidity, sort-of-dead but not properly dead (yet). The uncertainty of it all may well be the death of me ...

Let me guess, you’re one of those who doesn’t know the difference between fact and opinion?

Pretty much, it seems.

to me dead is brain dead

😂 So your opinion is more important than medical science? OK. Just admit you were wrong, came in all gung ho and made a massive fool of yourself OP. You can't style this one out mate!

To me dead is brain dead

Oh well if that’s what you think we don’t need to worry about actual definitions, do we?

OP, on the basis that you feel you get to invent your own facts and subject others to them, YABU.

There are different legal and medical definitions of dead depending on time and location. A young woman was issued a death certificate in the US, in a state where death means braindead, then taken home by her mother and kept on a ventilator for years until her heart stopped beating. Google Jahi McMath.

P.S. OP you sound like a right twat.

Let me guess, you’re one of those who doesn’t know the difference between fact and opinion?

It would seem so.

I sincerely hope you never go through something as traumatic as your colleague did. I would hate for someone to be as pedantic about it if you did

OP, a little sympathy and kindness goes a long way with someone who as been through a lot, as your colleague has. When you aren't perpertually outraged and pissed off with those around you, you will find life is a lot easier, and nicer.

You should nearly die 4 times !

I see both sides, you’re impatient and he’s traumatized. He wins

To me dead is brain dead

You’re managing to post on this thread though so clearly the above can’t be the whole story.

My friend who died twice because of a heart problem (told this by the doctors who resuscitated her in hospital) certainly has PTSD and she also has some cognitive impairment. It's terrifying and it will live with her for ever. And I hope that's a long time.

OP how can you read all these replies and still think you are right to be so dismissive?

I’m still in shock, frankly, at the low levels of survival following resuscitations. The survival rate seems to be much higher with access to an AED, which explains why patrolled beaches have defib machines.

@ChaircaMiaow

There is a lot of myth and miseducation surrounding cardiac arrests, and AEDs (and defibs of any sort) are only useful in a small percentage of cardiac arrests (whilst defib machines will always be connected to the patient in any arrest the "shocking" function is not used in many cases, but the pads/machine double up as monitoring equipment).

So, Defibrillation is generally (I say generally as the human body seems infinitely capable of throwing curve balls) only of use in cardiac arrest where the cause of the arrest is a primary problem of the heart. In other cases of cardiac arrest, shocking a patient is not indicated (contrary to what Casualty might have you believe):

Hypoxia (lack of oxygen) so all you primary airways problems; choking, strangulation etc, and primary breathing problems; Asthma, drowning etc

Hypovolemia - Lack of circulating blood, Bleeding to death, severe dehydration, circulatory collapse in anaphylaxis.

Hypothermia (whilst this can lead to arrhythmia arrest in severe cases, shocking a really cold person is ineffective until they are rewarmed)

Hypo/Hyperkalemia

Hydrogen ion acidosis - acidic blood (ties in with lack of oxygen and is the end result of too little oxygen)

Toxins - poisoning, accidental and deliberate overdoses, ie heroin causing central nervous system depression, slowing or stopping breathing and resulting in hypoxia (obviously some drugs will have a direct result on the heart and in these cases my lead to an arrhythmia and subsequent cardiac arrest that may be shockable with a defib)

Tamponade - Where the space between the heart muscle and the hearts fibrous sac fills with blood, consequently compressing the heart so that it can't beat effectively.

Tension pneumothorax - where there is a "leak" from a lung, which fills the chest cavity with air and compresses the heart so that it can no longer beat effectively.

Thrombus - massive blood clot in the lung leads to respiratory collapse and lack of oxygen

All of these need the cause to be treated if there is to be any hope of saving the patient, an AED will not achieve this. Even if one of the above problems leads to an arrhythmia (incorrect heart beat), the cause of the cardiac arrest still needs to be dealt with to have any hope of saving the patient as they will just keep going back into a fatal arrhythmia.

Most paediatric arrests will be due to one of the above causes, apart from a tiny minority of children with underlying heart conditions (which may or may not be diagnosed).

When defibrillation is indicated and a shock is delivered promptly the results can be amazing, but a defib on a beach is only likely to be useful as a numbers games, ie lots of lots of people in a small area, if one happens to have a cardiac arrest due to a heart problem then it might be reversible with the AED (and the slight increased risk of an arrhythmia becoming problematic due to cold water immersion).

Cyw2018 That’s a really good post. AEDs are amazing and it’s great that they’re everywhere but there is a lot of misunderstanding about when they can be used. I’ve never seen one used in all my years in Paeds nursing. Casualty has a lot to answer for, it makes me shout. I can’t watch it!

To me dead is brain dead

OP has spoken, all you medical professionals can go home now.

It makes no difference what you think dead means OP.

I could say I don't think a person is dead until they turn orange. It doesn't make it true...

Didn't Fred west wake up in the morgue ? 🧐

Jesus wept, people like this are tedious in the extreme. There's an implied, 'I'm special because I had this traumatic event, look at me!' attention-seeking element to it. Dead people do not come back. There's no such thing. My BIL had a cardiac arrest a couple of years ago. He had no pulse, not breathing on his own, his adult daughter did CPR on him till the ambulance arrived 8 minutes later (he's also vomitted). He then had to have the paddles used on him in the ER twice. Got pneumonia from the vomit aspiration. On a vent for 10 days, Last Rites, the lot. Made it back with no lasting damage (well, he has a defib now). He could probably fully ride the 'died' and 'miracle' train, but not being a drama llama, sees no need to. His father killed himself when BIL was only 4 and BIL's niece was only 9 when she died, but he remembers nothing from his own 'nearly died' experience.

OP how can you read all these replies and still think you are right to be so dismissive?

Why shouldn't she be, he's banging on about this at work! I have been through child bereavement myself, it pervades your entire life, but it's not appropriate to bring up repeatedly in many work places. You need to seek help with the issue if so, IMO.

Whether ‘people like this’ are tedious, drama llamas or whatever, is entirely beside the point. OP was not complaining that he was talking too much or in an inappropriate manner about his traumatic experience. She stated he was talking bollocks and also stated that she has repeatedly ‘corrected’ her DH on his reiteration of his friend’s experience. She is entirely incorrect and shouldn’t be mouthing off about something she has absolutely no understanding of. The fact that she thought she could come back and override medical fact with her opinion shows she is determined to be an ignorant dimwit.

I thought you couldn't restart a flatlined heart. As in all a defibrillator can do is reset a faulty heart rhythm (it stops your heart and your brain tried rebooting it to a correct electrical rhythm.

Maybe he means his brain died for a few seconds or his heart stopped whilst being rebooted?

I'd love a Dr to come on here and explain.

origamiunicorn
It would depend on the cause of the asystole (flat line) arrest as detailed above.

Some causes are reversible and if treated quickly enough then people can be resuscitated.

Maybe he means his brain died for a few seconds or his heart stopped whilst being rebooted?
Your brain doesn't "die". What happens is a lack of oxygen (hypoxia) causes brain damage. This can be so severe that it is incompatible with life.

When people talk about "brain dead" they are referring to the brain stem (which controls functions like breathing, heart beat etc) no longer functioning.

@origamiunicorn
You are correct, Asystole (flat line) is not a shockable rhythm!

The heart has it's own electrical conduction system running through it, which consists of various nodes and bundles of specialise cells, that enable the heart to beat in a 2 part beat, ie the 2 top chambers contract initially in a downwards beat pushing blood returning from the lungs/body into the lower chambers of the heart, then momentarily later the 2 larger bottom chambers contract in an upwards motion pushing blood to the body and the lungs. If this electrical circuit is disrupted then an arrhythmia is occurring.

Some arrhythmias are benign (ie cause not problems), some are liveable with but present risks, ie AF (atrial fibrillation) a common condition affecting the part of the electrical circuit that makes the top 2 chambers contract properly can put people at increased risk of blood clots and therefore strokes and they are therefore given blood thinners to reduce this risk. Some of these Rhythms will be treated with shocks (cardioversion) in live patients, in a hope to return the heart to a normal, efficient Rhythm.

Arrhythmias effecting the bottom part of the heart for a sustained period are more dangerous as this will effect the efficiency of pumping blood all round the body, including to the brain.

Two of the many arrhythmias in the bottom chambers (ventricles) are shockable rhythms...
one of these rhythms (ventricular fibrillation) is always associated with cardiac arrest, as it results in the whole of the heart quivering like a jelly and thus no blood being circulated round the body.
The second is ventricular tachycardia which can be associated with cardiac arrest or can occur with a pulse, and depending how well the heart and body is managing to cope with the reduced output from the heart the patient may or may not be conscious, but obviously this patient would be considered to be imminently at risk of cardiac arrest, until treated.

There are then two non-shockable cardiac arrest rhythms....
Pulseless electrical activity, which is where the electrical circuit of the heart is functioning correctly (or near correctly) but there is no circulating blood, so no pulse, this can have many causes (see my previous post from earlier this afternoon).

The second non-shockable rhythm is Asystole or flat line. A cadaver will be flat line, but equally someone who has suffered a recent arrest may be flatline, regardless it is associated with a very poor prognosis, but in the recently collapsed will be treated with CPR and adrenaline, in the hope that it can be either stimulated back to pulseless electrical activity and the cause of the condition that gave rise to the cardiac arrest can then be managed, or that it is stimulated back to ventricular fibrillation and then shocked into an appropriate Rhythm, although the chances of success are always extremely slim.

The other time that asystole occurs is in the moments after a patient is shocked and the hearts electrical conduction system is "resetting". Thus the aim of defibrillation is to stop the heart, so that it can reboot and work properly, rather than the common misconception that the shock is to restart the heart.

It doesn't matter what 'to me' is. To you, you could believe in unicorns. It is irrelevant. The fact is, you are wrong. Surgeons, drs, and medical personnel on here attest to this. What you want to believe is irrelevant to the facts. You are very ill-informed. Now you can either remain stubborn and like an immature 9 year old who refuses to cede anything, or you can admit you are very ill-informed on this and spoke out of ignorance. Once of these makes you a bigger person. It's up to you.