To have left?

[Grumpasaurus]

Today, DH, DS (2.5), and PIL went into a pop up art gallery. DS was not in a pram and wandering around with a plastic caterpillar, the lady running the art gallery was quite sweet with him (when she thought we were buying art!). To be 100% fair we should have put him in the pram simply do to the location.

DS accidentally tripped and knocked one of the fake wall panels (sort of like a plank of plaster in the middle of the room) with his shoulder, which weren't screwed in well. The wall jolted and two framed prints fell off the back. The canvasses were absolutely fine and the frames had two tiny (I mean about 1-2mm at most), which were hard to see as the frame were antique style and therefore distressed. The frames were just hung on one small nail (I attach photos) and the walls weren't stable at all (I attach photos of the poorly done fittings).

We obviously felt awful and apologised profusely and asks PIL to take DS out of shop whilst we discussed what to do. The lady went mental. We asked her what she would like us to do, she screamed at us that we weren't going to get away with it. We said clearly we weren't trying to and we're standing there hat in hands wanting to find a resolution. We offered to contact the artist (out of the country apparently), pay her insurance deductible (no insurance apparently), take the frames to the framer to ask them to touch up the paint or get fixed, or just pay £500 towards costs of her getting the frames fixed. She was not having it and only wanted us to buy the prints- for £3.5k!!!!

I said we weren't willing to do that as a) the frames were barely damaged at all, b) the prints were totally fine, the wall was not secure and the prints weren't hung safely.

She kept trying to muddy the issue and force us to pay. She wouldn't entertain any other discussion. Four blokes were in the shop and heard the argument and said if they were us, they would leave. I offered to call the police or a lawyer friend to discuss liability. She refused. We asked her for a solution she wanted- she said full ticket price. So I said, well, we will leave then, and you can deal with it. I said she should have insurance!

Only when she thought we were going to leave did she want to negotiate. She stormed over to the paintings, and GET THIS, gently knocked the same wall and ANOTHER PAINTING FELL OFF. She said that was our fault too!

So I said I would take photos of the damage and contact the artist myself. She then picked the photos up and hid them, saying she would only bring them back if she took my details. I said no, we had tried to be reasonable, so we left.

First: AIBU

Second: what would you do now? The damage was seriously minimal and actually didn't look any different than the distressed effect. I also do not know if the frames were already dinted as others in the collection were (photos attached).

Well should have would have could have is a little late, your child damaged the paintings so yes, as their responsible adult, you are liable. If it was your property damaged, you would feel the same.

That said, you offered to sort it out, not sure what else you could have done. I would have left too if my offer to fix it was refused. They will have insurance.

Fair play, you have admitted that you were wrong to let a toddler loose in an art gallery / display, and hopefully this is a lesson learned.

However, from everything you say, you were more than fair and honest and generous with your offers and she wasn't prepared to discuss reasonably with you - so she has now lost out (and also hopefully learned about securing the painting and indeed the walls for any future exhibitions, where it sounds as if there is the potential not only for painting, but for people to be damaged due to the flimsiness of the display system.

I've got a great idea that will really help the OP and move the discussion forward.
Ready?

I think someone else should point out that the child should have been in the pram.

There. Sorted.

Stop.

This whole thing is UTTERLY ridiculous.

Your DS is 2.5. He TRIPPED, as ANY of us could have. Should we all be in a buggy to look at art?

Something so flimsy it falls over when a tiny 2.5yo bumps it, isn’t safe.

Don’t give it another thought.

Honestly. I’m glad she didn’t accept your offer of £500. They should be glad no one got hurt. They should have insurance - not that there’s anything worthy of a claim in this instance.

@MattFreisWeatherReport I have uploaded photos but only some can see them. I can describe though:

The hooks were the single nail gold coloured hooks you can buy in a DIY store. So there is a hole at the top of the hook that the nail goes into, the nail was about 3/4 inch long. The one we use at home have thicker nails and two nail holes and are a sturdier metal by comparison.

The "wall" was a plasterboard panel that was fitted into the floor via some metal bars. Part of the issue was the screws from the bars into the walls weren't all the way in, meaning the wall wobbled easily. Equally the nails had started to sag outward from the wall I suppose due to the weight of the frame, so the pictures were not flush but falling forward if that makes sense.

The art gallery was a pop up shop in a family area in Blackheath in London. So a temporary shop. Some art was hung, some was leaning against the wall on the floor, etc. It was not a gallery as such but a pop up store. It's hard to describe but didn't have the formality of a gallery.

the paintings were on canvass with antique style frames. She told me they had been done "in Chelsea". I offered to take them to the framer if that helped or take them to the framer we normally use. My mom is an artist who sells work for about the same price and framing is never more than £250 ish. Also the frames only had very minor damage. The prints were totallly unharmed.

I looked at the artists site and they were charging about 1/3 more in the pop up shop.

I hope that helps.

Op it was the galleries fault, it is a serious health and safety issue that a wall fell down so easily, it could have injured your toddler. Yes they should have been in a pram, but what is somebody unsteady on their feet knocked it over, or somebody in a wheelchair. The woman was crazy, you were right to leave. They could have been liable.

Get someone you know to go to the gallery. I bet the pictures will be up for sale at the original price. She thought she could get you to pay in full after your more than generous offer of £500.

@LadyRannaldini WHEN have I said it wasn't our fault? I have totally owned up to the fact that DS should have been in a pram.

I offered to pay for the damage he caused. She didn't want to know and ONLY wanted us to pay the full tag price, which profited not only the artist but presumably her as well, given the mark up!

Four blokes, totally uninvolved and unknown to us, came over to tell us if they were us, they would just leave.

We still hesitated as we didn't want to hit and run so to speak. Only once she then hit the wall again, knocking another picture off herself snd trying to blame THAT on us, did we leave!

@SarahMused I should! Apparently today was the last day of the pop up. I wonder if that was true? Otherwise will do that!!

Grump I really wouldn't worry about it any more. You offered to pay for repairs which, based on the information you've posted here, you wouldn't actually be liable for. When I say liable I mean legally as opposed to some MNers moral view that you are automatically liable for any loss or damage ever caused by your toddler. You're not, it's really not that simple!

BTW (as I have my work hat on on a Sunday night ) regarding this: You probably have some kind of insurance yourself (e.g. a personal liability extension to your household policy) that would cover the cost. You may well have personal liability cover but that would ONLY cover the cost if the insurer believes you are legally liable. Posters shouldn't assume they can accept responsibility on behalf of their insurer because you can't and paying up in the mistaken belief that the insurer will reimburse you may leave you very much out of pocket.

They should have insurance. You don't have to pay them anything.

Last chance to make the sales then. No wonder she wanted the full price. Don‘t give it another thought.

Doesn’t sound like you were unreasonable at all, she sounds like a total lunatic

I’m an exhibiting artist and agree totally with IncrediblySadToo.
It doesn’t sound to me that your child was at fault and the gallery keeper sounds very inexperienced and was no doubt panicking.
All my work is supplied with mirror plates attached and is either screwed to the wall by me or the gallery.
It’s very unlikely that any of them could possibly fall from the wall but if they did so, in the circumstances you describe, it wouldn’t be the fault of anyone who tripped over such a projecting part of the wall.
It would be the fault of whoever hung them on such a flimsy wall with just one nail.
If the work was so valuable it should have been safely secured to prevent theft.
I’m sorry this has happened to you. Your offer was incredibly generous and IMO quite unnecessary.

I wish I could see the pics. I've just looked to see if you can attach photos to PMs, but don't think you can. The woman invigilating the gallery sounds difficult, but I still think a good move would be to go back and discuss it calmly. That's not to say it's OK for her to rip you off - wtf does 'done in Chelsea' mean ffs? If you're able to contact the artist direct, that could be another good thing to do. Framing is really expensive, particularly in London, and I think some of the estimates upthread of what the framing might have cost are completely unrealistic. You need to know what the frame cost and what it would cost to fix/replace (and get proof of both) and you need to know what everyone's insurance arrangements are and the nature of the agreement between artist and gallery, so that the artist isn't out of pocket (a £3.5k painting needs an immaculate frame), but equally so that if you end up footing the bill you can make a counterclaim in view of the possible negligence of whoever hung the picture (not necessarily the invigilator). You've just got to talk to everyone. You can't just walk away no matter how much faff it is. I appreciate it was an accident but so is rear-ending a car in front of you, and no one would expect to walk away from that (whatever 4 random blokes at the scene said). If you have personal liability insurance you can get the insurer to handle it - I wasn't suggesting you should 'accept liability on behalf of your insurer' as a pp said.

Thanks all. I feel a lot calmer now. I was really anxious about leaving, and guilty, and also shaken because she was so nuts and aggressive. So I am glad I didn't pay £500 or give her my details as her attitude was so crazy.

@MattFreisWeatherReport here is a link to the hooks: www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-20-Lb-Brass-Picture-Hanger/3308560

I think it was ok to leave, you offered her more than enough to compensate her lack of damage. They should have insurance for this sort of accidents. Anyone can trip. I have problem with my ankle at the moment and few days ago I tripped at the United Colors of Benetton at Oxford street and nearly knocked their display. I didn’t run loose - just bent down to pick up a t-shirt on the lower shelf and completely lost balance.
And she could mention something to you about your child if she saw a problem. Curators in museums and galleries usually do this on my experience ( mostly in a nice inoffensive way).

Something so flimsy it falls over when a tiny 2.5yo bumps it, isn’t safe.

This ^
Yes, I’m sure it has been mentioned once or twice that your DS should have been in a pushchair or held by the hand but equally if a small child can disturb fixtures and fittings by merely tripping over then they are not fit for purpose.

Matt this is nothing like a rear end accident and what on earth would she make a counter claim for ? You're not making any sense!

Can anyone else show @MattFreisWeatherReport the photos? It's a tiny dent of about 1-2mm, as is the other one but she ran away with the print before I could take a photo.

Also, we were there for nearly an hour! She maintained the artist was uncontactable and abroad, the pop up shop was closing "for good" at 5pm today, that they had no insurance, that the frames were "very expensive and done in Chelsea", that I couldn't take the frames back to the framer as the prints would then be out of commission for 12 weeks, that they couldn't be hung as they were, etc. Then, and I cannot emphasise this enough, she knocked another print down the same way and said that was our fault too!

I am not overly motivated to go back tbh, i feel she used the accident to swindle us and only wanted to exchange details after an hour of us trying to explore options- and when I said I would be happy to wait for the police to come and advise...

Also, @MattFreisWeatherReport if I rear ended someone I would pay for the insurance, not the whole bloody car!

At those prices, it's very hard to believe neither she nor the artists have insurance. I exhibit, and it's either 'at my risk' or a requirement to have insurance. (And my paintings aren't anywhere near that expensive!)

Your solution sounded perfectly reasonable to me. Accidents happen.

I work in a gallery. Those paintings would now need to go to the framers. She was highly unreasonable. And you've learned your lesson re. toddlers in a gallery.

Matt this is nothing like a rear end accident and what on earth would she make a counter claim for confused? You're not making any sense!

How am I not making sense? Her toddler damaged the frame. She therefore owes the artist the cost of fixing or replacing it. If the gallery/person who hung the picture did it unsafely, and that contributed to the damage, then she may be able to counterclaim against them. What's complicated about that?

And as regards the car accident analogy, pp seem to be saying that it may not be her responsibility because (a) it was an accident and/or (b) other people who were there said that they'd just walk away. I disagree, and I suspect the law would too.

OP, I get your frustration, but the fact is that your unsupervised toddler did damage. I'm not suggesting you pay for the whole picture, just the frame. The artist is the one who knows its value so contact them. If you've found their website then email them. They have email abroad too, you know! Then you can also discuss the way the gallery behaved, the (as you see it) flimsy shopfitting, the other picture, etc. There's a risk you may end up paying through the nose, but the alternative is leaving an artist out of pocket. Or maybe the artist is insured and the whole problem is covered. You won't know unless you make contact.

It obviously is not a police matter, so I'm not sure why you suggested that.