How do you define class?

[PedroTheCowboy]

I grew up working class. Both my parents have working class jobs, they never went to university and live in a coronation street style terrace house. I went to university and have a phd. I live in a small semi detached house and might be considered lower middle class now. But I can't stop seeing myself as working class. My inlaws also look down on me for being working class because my parents didn't go to uni and they live in a terrace house. What do you think defines someones class? The class they were born, their house, income, university education, the friends they have or their hobbies? Something else?

I don’t pay much attention to class generally.

However, someone commented to me the other day about a new emerging ‘muddle class’ and I found it oddly accurate.

Prosecco brunching, overly tanned, love island watching 21-35 year olds with flashy cars on credit, renting instead of buying (or living with parents) but taking several fancy holidays a year on their credit cards.

They self identify as ‘middle class’ whilst the actual middle classes are off walking their dogs in Scotland thinking that love island is some 4* Maldives resort 🙄

I love a bit of bright nail polish (only plums, reds and greys though) and have been known to scoop rice with a fork

@Leafyhouse chin chin my fellow drinker

Furniture is a mix of inherited (stole) from my parents house, donated by friends or ikea / Argos! I don’t actually know about my dads ranking, which is terrible but suggests he wasn’t an officer. He retired early when I was quite young. I don’t think he was particular high ranking though or my mum would have definitely told me!

I’m currently drinking a g&t, but love red wine too. Or white wine. Or wine full stop now you mention it....

I don’t think I’ve ever had a conversation about class in real life, but am always curious as to how I’m viewed when these threads pop up!

If you're a member of the aristocracy you're upper class
If you send your children to private schools or could afford to but choose not to, you're middle class
If you're only income is state benefits you're the underclass
Everyone else is working class
(except retired people, who are the class they were in just before they retired)

The problem with all of this is that people feel they shouldn't actually define themselves as middle class - as if it is somehow something to be ashamed of - hence people with enormous priviledge (Jeremy Corbin?) who will go to their graves as "working class"

I am happy to define myself as middle class, and always knew I was from when I first heard of the subject.

Doesn't mean I don't have some lifelong w/c friends, however.

I don't live in a posh enough bit of gloucestershire to rub shoulders with any upper class folk, however.

The Beckhams can afford to send their children to private school but I wouldn't call them middle class...

Of course I am now embarrassed that I spelled Corbyn wrong :(

Easy. They are genuinely nice, considerate people who hold themselves well.

My kids go to private school, lots of wealthy boarding school mummies with zero class.

The British class system is odd, the caste system is awful, but at least it has closely defined meanings.

I’m an immigrant, my dad was a taxi driver and my mother worked in a corner shop, I have a degree (and masters) from Oxbridge and have a fairly professional job (actuary), I also (well the banks does) own two properties.

What does it make me class wise?

SimonJT your background is almost identical to mine.

I say I'm working class though as I retain those habits and mannerisms from my childhood. I grew up in a working class neighbourhood and it shaped my behaviour.

at anyone thinking class is anything to do with whether you're a good person or not..

Attitude (which comes from your own experience and your family's experiences):
So do you assume (borne our by experience) that the establishment is on your side, that you'll always manage to get by, even if something awful happens, that everyone can and should have a savings cushion, that everywhere is 'for the likes of you', that you can trust the police, that property ownership is normal, that education is the highest priority for your children?

Or, do you assume (borne out by experience) that the establishment doesn't care about you, that it's normal to live from payday to payday, that there are places and things which 'aren't for the likes of you', that you can't trust the police, that property ownership is something you couldn't even dream of, that a safe, warm home with enough food is the highest priority for your children?

Agreed, NameChanged, even allowing for the fact that every time one of these threads gets going, someone seems to confuse ‘social class’ with ‘classy’, the idea that there’s the faintest correlation between class and ethics is a bit more than dim witted.

There's always so much flim flam about personal consumer choices and micro-culture on these threads.
Class is primarily about money, capital (including l, I suppose social capital) and power over others.
Its only complicated in the UK because we never properly got rid of our feudal system and instead laid capitalism right over the top.
Hence the continued existence of a feudal "upper class" some of which are still rich and powerful, others not so much.
I think to some extent the continued fascination with the intangible matters of dress, language, culture comes from that as well.
There's a whole bunch of people out there who aren't particularly rich or powerful attempting to leverage what they can out of the idea that they might still be more authentically suited to being in charge.
The idea that your working class if you work and ruling class if you can rely on returns from capital (other people's work) is familier to me as the Marxist analysis. It still holds up if your trying to understand how the world works in macro terms.
In cultural terms it doesn't make so much sense as it bunches a load of people together as "working class" who have wildly different experiences and levels of social influence.
For cultural class I'd still go with the old ABCD scale invented by marketers.

I would define class as a very British obsession. Traditionally there were three: lower, middle and upper. Then came the concept of the under class, and now the super rich class. Definitions have varied - defining it on whether you do manual or white collar work. In the post war period people had more disposable money so then there came to be cultural indicators. It used to be that it was seen as fairly fixed, then came the idea of a meritocratic society - you can be born anywhere and 'get to the top' through hard work and opportunity, promoted through political policies. Also people mix with all backgrounds at universities and in workplaces, so if you have these experiences you are more likely to have diverse friends.

Technically speaking more people identify as working class than who are actually working class today.

I think you can be occupationally middle class but still have more traditionally working class attitudes about inequality, elitism, privilege etc.

I would say the biggest salient factor about class is access to opportunities and being able to live in an area where there isn't a lot of crime.

Ok- what am I?
Dad had an office job and got a degree part time aged 30. Mum was a sahm, then part time low paid jobs then trained as a nurse in her 40s. Own their house.
Dh has his own business and 2 degrees. I’m a nurse.
I went to private school (didn’t pay), have good posture and a posh accent (according to other people). Own some expensive clothes but lots more cheap clothes (don’t follow fashion, just wear what suits me).
Have a mortgage. Dc in state school. Old car (dh has a new one but it’s not important to me). No hobbies due to busy life but enjoy horse riding, running, reading.
I say lounge, breakfast lunch and dinner, settee or sofa interchangeably and lounge/ living room interchangeably. Sandwich, never butty. I don’t discuss money.
It’s never occurred to me to wonder what class I am except on these threads. I read the title and thought it was about having class rather than belonging to one until I opened it.

I think if you're not sure whether you're working class or middle class - you're working class.

I suspect that most middle class people don't worry about this issue.

The Beckhams can afford to send their children to private school but I wouldn't call them middle class... no, she is lower middle class, he is working class.

(Victoria) Beckham was born at the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow, Essex, United Kingdom, and raised in Goffs Oak, Hertfordshire.[8] She is the eldest of three children of Jacqueline Doreen (née Cannon), a former insurance clerk and hairdresser,[9][10] and Anthony William Adams, who worked as an electronics engineer.[8] They founded an electronics wholesale business which allowed a comfortable upbringing for Victoria, her sister, Louise,[1] and her brother, Christian Adams.[11] Beckham's great-great-great-grandfather was German artist and revolutionary Carl Heinrich Pfänder [de] and great-great granduncle was Minnesota politician William Pfaender. [12][13]

Her parents were very wealthy.

(David)Beckham was born at Whipps Cross University Hospital in Leytonstone, London, England.[24] He is the son of Sandra Georgina (née West; b. 1949), a hairdresser, and David Edward Alan "Ted" Beckham (b. Edmonton, London, 1948), a kitchen fitter, who married in the London Borough of Hackney in 1969.[25] He has an older sister, Lynne Georgina, and a younger sister, Joanne Louise. He regularly played football in Ridgeway Park, Chingford, as a child, and attended Chase Lane Primary School and Chingford County High School.[26]

The likes of Boris Johnson and David Cameron are upper middle class - the sheer volume of people on MN who think because they passed their 11+, it somehow elevates them to the same lofty heights is laughable.

@howmanysleepstillchristmas - sounds fairly middle class to me, but see my earlier comment that not many people 'want' to be described as such.

I honestly wouldn't have thought of VB as middle class based on the way she speaks and dresses - shows how much I know!

"There was a thread a few days ago about diet and class. If I can find it, I'll link it. There were some very interesting comments about class and health, and his only the privileged can afford to ignore it (or feign to ignore it)."

Yes, i found that thread really interesting but it was closed, does anyone know why a thread would b closed? Do they close them after so long?

super rich class - that isn't a class - I could win a 158 Euro millions - it does not change my class. You cannot buy class. I would always be lower middle class, I might get to mix with inherited wealth on the same level but I would not be one of them. I could educate my children appropriately in the same schools, and then possibly their children would seamlessly mix in those circles. It doesn't matter how much elocution or grooming I had, I would still not be the same as Sam Cam.

I am fairly sure David Cameron is solid upper class - no "middle" required. :)

I think it is very hard to define it.

That’s the point - keeps the game going. If people believe they can change class then they must be able to ‘buy’ class. And heaven knows there are practically lists on mn on what you should buy! (Hint, NOT a toilet brush) it keeps people on the treadmill of consumerism and working to buy stuff to make yourself feel better about who you are. Better to assume you stay as you are and you cannot transition.

I am working class. Parents both working class. My family tree shows generations of working class branching off in all directions. That is where I shall remain. Nobody I know remotely cares.

Topcat2104 - subjective - he married well (earls daughter) and has a few baronets in the closet - but his father worked! as a stockbroker, it wasn't inherited (much). He defines himself as middle class