To think free speech is dying

[Doggydoggydoggy]

I’ve just been deleted off a Facebook group because I dared to respectfully, as in stick to the facts, do not personally insult anyone, use no offensive terms, offer an opposing viewpoint.

The most rage inducing thing is a few of the comments from people on there actually were disrespectful but it was only me that got deleted.
Because it seems that being rude is absolutely fine as long as it is within the agreed opinion!

I hate the term but the world really is full of absolute bloody snowflakes and political correctness and censorship really has gone mad!

People it seems can say whatever the heck they fancy but immediately shut down any opposing view.

Happens on here all the time.

Agreed. Yanbu.

Depressing.
I’m all for people not being allowed to personally insult/bully but the total shutdown on certain subjects just takes the absolute piss.

Free speech is between you and the state. You didn't get sent to prison for your views did you?

I personally don't think that free speech us dying. I'm not sure what happened in your case, OP, but many people believe that free speech means the right to say anything (it's not, there are laws around it) and/or that it means "the right to not have anyone opposing to me" which it also doesn't mean.

In countries where free speech is limited, people get sent to prison or executed for things they say. Also, when it is a forum like here or other places, the owners/moderators decide what they want to tolerate. If you don't agree with their rules, there are always other platforms. Free speech doesn't mean the right to have access to everything.

Freedom of speech is not dying. This is forever the outcry of those who have been disagreed with.

Facebook groups are private, and Facebook is a company, they can do what they like. As is Mumsnet and other forums.

You have a right to freedom of speech, what you do not have a right to is a particular platform for that speech. Or indeed freedom from the consequence of that speech. You are free to broadcast your views as much as you like, and other people are free to not give you the benefit of their platform.

Lol.

You can say whatever you like in a public forum, bar incitement etc. Facebook is not a public forum, so no, you don't have the right to free speech there. Just like how, if you started up with hateful shit in my house, I could tell you to shut the fuck up and kick you out. You have no right to an audience.

In some circles yes. But in others there has been a resurgence of liberalism. Unsurprisingly the most privileged members of our society fall into the latter category which in some ways is a relief really. They have a way of keeping things in check. Money does wonders. I wouldn’t worry too much. If censorship starts to effect people with power they’ll lash out.

Yabu.

Im not sure what happened in your case

I stated that a product to help revive bees shouldn’t have been made in plastic because it’s not indefinitely recyclable, is unlikely to be re recycled by consumers and will leach toxic chemicals when it eventually finds its way into landfill and that we should try to live our lives compassionately and if we are able to revive a creature we should.

Which was in response to the opinion of others that a device that revives struggling bees is ridiculous and the bees should be left to die, we shouldn’t be interfering and sugar water is bad for them.

So nothing controversial!

I am absolutely flabbergasted to be honest.
Absolutely nothing I wrote was in any way, shape or form offensive.

@lockheart OP means freedom of speech in terms of tollerance of speech and the intellectual courage association ed with that attitude as opposed to people who no platform speech they aren’t strong enough to argue against. Basically, op has come across some stupid people and is concerned that everyone will react the same way. She doesn’t mean in a legal (although to be frank freedom of speech has limited legal effect in our jurisdiction or constitutional (although again, our covstiution limits the right to free speech) sense.

I find that people complaining about their freedom of speech are usually talking about their lack of freedom to use hate speech. But I’ve no idea what OP said so maybe she’s different.

YABU especially with your example.

It was a Facebook group so it would have been the admin of that group to remove you. That's upto the admin, your opinion was probably the opposite of the group and that's why you were removed.

Like others have said, it's not a public forum it was a private group.

@BogglesGoggles the OP said free speech is dying because she was removed from a Facebook group.

Free speech means the government can't persecute you for your views, unless they are illegal (e.g inciting others to violence).

It does not mean that others have to engage with you, or have you in their groups if they don't want to. There is no law saying people must have intellectual courage and must be debated with...

That's upto the admin, your opinion was probably the opposite of the group and that's why you were removed

It’s a wildlife gardening page so I would have expected people to be opposed to plastic and in support of saving bees to be honest.

Tbh OP I don't see that what you posted was offensive, but for some reason an admin did. I'd stop giving this any more headspace and just move on.

It wasn’t offensive, it really really wasn’t!
It seems to be they just didn’t like someone disagreeing!

Hence why I said here about snowflakes and people being free to be offensive on their terms but can’t handle any opposing view so have to shut it down.

I obviously was not meaning that free speechwas literally going down the pan because people get deleted off Facebook.
I meant as in people seem to be getting less and less tolerant of opposing views and more and more Sensitive.

Yes OP, I’ve seen an awful lot of this in the last few years. I’ve stated undeniable facts, backed up by evidence and been called all the names under the sun. It’s intellectual cowardice, people have no argument to come back with so they immediately start with the ad hominem, then block/chuck you out or whatever. I absolutely agree that it’s based on tribalism and/or whatever particular view is fashionable/woke. Ultimately it leads to a complete shutdown of opinions and then you run into all sorts of problems with unintended consequences. People should be able to test their ideas and opinions against opposing ones, that’s how understanding evolves, but I don’t see much of that happening nowadays.

YANBU. However free speech isn't dying. It died a long time ago, and it ain't coming back.
The world's cracked its face. Even on here I'll often write something look at it and think. Oh no I best amend that or it might offend someone.

Okay OP, I don't know anything about bees or wildlife gardening so don't exactly get the topic and if the removal was controversial or not.

But that's Facebook for you. I was once a member of a fairly large (anti-Brexit) group on Facebook run by someone who had no clue and it annoyed me until one day when I had to call her out on quite a few things (backed up, of course). I was immediately removed and blocked. And of course, it's her group so she does what she likes. I'm still peeved by the fact that she still runs the group having no clue and giving incorrect information but what can I do?

Free/Freedom if speech is something different though.

YANBU and this is the classic response to this debate. So predictable.

I find that people complaining about their freedom of speech are usually talking about their lack of freedom to use hate speech. But I’ve no idea what OP said so maybe she’s different.

I would love to know what your definition of 'hate speech' is. And whatever that is, who gets to decide?

YANBU. I’m not that bothered about Facebook debates because those always descend into idiocy and it’s very seldom one gets an expert on anything joining in, but I find the trend towards no-platforming in universities etc. extremely alarming. Of course I can understand why certain individuals are problematic but unless you allow their problematic, sometimes even appalling opinions to be heard against an opposing view, no real, useful discourse is happening. No-platform is the real killer or free speech right now, and as long as it continues we will run the risk of stoking extremist views that feel they are not being heard turning to something more dangerous. It also flies in the face of what a lot of institutions of learning were set up to do.

Totally agree, you can't say anything today without offending somebody.
I don't mean racism, homophobia, or anything else that is offensive, that is never excusable.

Tolerance of speech has gone down the absolutely swanny and it's always, always inhibited by those who claim to be all about acceptance and inCluSivIty; that is, until you disagree with their rhetoric or disrupt their echo chamber. Then they'll sic people on you and make ridiculous claims.

The way gender critical feminist are being treated at the moment by others is very alarming.

It is not just being banned on social media. People are being fired for having unpopular opinions.

It’s easy enough to believe that a company is justified in firing an employee who spends their weekends at Klan meetings. Also if the employee is actively protesting the company they work for. But what if someone is out campaigning against the death penalty? Is that a justified firing.

I fear we are approaching a society where if we want to keep a roof over our heads and our bellies full, we will need to keep our mouths shut. Sure, we aren’t being arrested, but that isn’t really enough.

I believe that social media platforms need to take an entirely different approach. We need to go back to the belief that if you don’t support the speech of the most awful person in the world, then you don’t really support free speech.