To think free speech is dying

[Doggydoggydoggy]

I’ve just been deleted off a Facebook group because I dared to respectfully, as in stick to the facts, do not personally insult anyone, use no offensive terms, offer an opposing viewpoint.

The most rage inducing thing is a few of the comments from people on there actually were disrespectful but it was only me that got deleted.
Because it seems that being rude is absolutely fine as long as it is within the agreed opinion!

I hate the term but the world really is full of absolute bloody snowflakes and political correctness and censorship really has gone mad!

People it seems can say whatever the heck they fancy but immediately shut down any opposing view.

Indeed pikachu but I was quite shocked at the view there.

It’s a wildlife gardening group, so I rather expected it to be eco friendly, anti plastic, up for saving bees etc.
I didn’t join it to debate.
Quite the opposite.

Gardening and dogs are my two biggest passions in life, I was really looking forward to relaxing of an evening, looking at lovely plants and wildlife and getting gardening tips, tips on boosting the wildlife friendliness of my garden, encouraging birds etc.

I was really surprised to see all these people aggressively (oh the irony!) claiming the bee saving idea was ‘ridiculous’, ‘fake news’, we should stop interfering and let them die etc.

I wasn’t really wanting to ‘debate’, I was just voicing my opinion about how I agreed with it but not the plastic.

Freedom of speech is as alive as it ever was, I would argue with the current President and efforts to silence the media, there is more of a focus on free speech now than anytime in the last few hundred years.

What's grown is the complete lack of understanding about what free speech is and the responsibility that comes with having the right to free speech.

We are also still working out how free speech and social media can co-exist, and there are understandably some growing pains there.

Free speech, in most of the Western world, means that you have the right to voice your opinion in public, as long as you're not inciting violence or infringing on the rights of others (this is purposely a rather vague idea).

Free speech does not mean that people have to provide you with a platform. Free speech does not mean you get to speak and not be challenged for your views. Free speech does not guarantee you protection from any backlash that comes from stating your opinion, only that the backlash will not be legal action (again, unless you are inciting violence or engaging in defamation, etc).

The Facebook page you posted on, legally, is considered private. The moderators who manage the page have every right to kick you off for not agreeing with their opinion. Everyone has the right to kick some out of their private space for not agreeing with them if they so choose.

That's not being a snowflake, that's standing up for what they believe in.

If you went on a breastfeeding support group page and started harping on about the benefits of formula and how breastmilk is poison, you would expect to be kicked off.

Whoever runs the group didn't like what you had to say. So they exercised their right to privacy and autonomy and freedom of opinion and kicked you out of their private space.

Free speech in action.

Yes there are a lot of topics that get removed and forbidden on here - I can't say what or I'll get removed!

@Whatisthisfuckery there is no such thing as undeniable facts. There are facts which in the present era and in our current culture are seen as being undeniable. When you are taught scientific subjects at higher levels they always go through the history, however briefly, of discoveries/modern thinking to show ideas and facts aren't static.

@HulksPurplePanties agree.

I think there Is an inability to agree to disagree and internet platforms have made this worse.

If you had discussed this in a cafe with friends, it would have been brushed off. I think that’s the same for many subjects now. But the internet and it’s various platforms is a toxic place to discuss anything and I’m constantly amazed at the arguments that ensue.

Simoncowells, mostly the topics to which you refer are a. Libellous b. Hate speech, by which I mean those encouraging a range of isms which the majority of us find distasteful, the publishing of which is illegal. Other than that direct personal insults to posters are also unnacceptable. Behave as you would face to face with someone and your posts will remain.

Free speech does not mean that people have to provide you with a platform. Free speech does not mean you get to speak and not be challenged for your views. Free speech does not guarantee you protection from any backlash that comes from stating your opinion, only that the backlash will not be legal action (again, unless you are inciting violence or engaging in defamation, etc).

Amen to that. I'm tempted to copy this and post it when someone else starts wanging on about free speech.

yes, but surely free speech doesn't mean that you should be censored for having an alternate viewpoint, does it? Silenced for going against the flow?

You don't have to be given a platform, but equally you shouldn't be denied one because you hold a different view.

The example the OP gives is clearly one, to me at any rate, where there's no controversy, just that the mod of this particular page simply cannot cope with any alternate viewpoint. And that seems to be more and more prevalent.

Completely agree. The most recent example is the ludicrous decision to stop referring to ships as “she”, breaking with centuries of tradition. I’ve also had a completely factual post deleted here, simply because someone disliked and reported it.

As others have said on a private forum it isn't as much about freedom of speech but it is still a social problem. As people we seem to be far less able to cope with hearing views that are different to our own and put ourselves in echo chambers.

yes, but surely free speech doesn't mean that you should be censored for having an alternate viewpoint, does it? Silenced for going against the flow?

Free Speech means you can't be censored BY THE GOVERNMENT.
The GOVERNMENT can't take away
Private citizens with their own private facebook pages can censor you till the cows come home. That's their right. You wouldn't allow someone to come into your house and start waffling on about how the earth is flat and just let them stand there because you don't want to "Censor" them.

Sorry, should have ended my sentence. The Government can't take away your platform.

As others have said on a private forum it isn't as much about freedom of speech but it is still a social problem. As people we seem to be far less able to cope with hearing views that are different to our own and put ourselves in echo chambers.

Nonsense.

Before social media and the intranet if you didn't agree with someone you would stop being friends with them, or you would stop reading that newspaper, or you wouldn't vote for them, or you'd challenge them to a fight out back by the garbage cans.

If you said half the shit you say on the internet in real life you'd wind up with a punch in the nose.

Blocking someone or Deleting comments is mild compared to a punch in the nose.

Social media provides everyone with a platform for their opinions and it gives them anonymity and protection so you can say what you want without risking a punch in the nose.

What we've lost is the old mantra "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all".

"Before social media and the intranet if you didn't agree with someone you would stop being friends with them, or you would stop reading that newspaper, or you wouldn't vote for them, or you'd challenge them to a fight out back by the garbage cans.

If you said half the shit you say on the internet in real life you'd wind up with a punch in the nose."

That's not my experience, I've grown up among those quite able to have a debate and still walk away as friends or even still married (when I think about the very different political and social views my grandparents held). Never has it come to a physical fight, we have words we are quite able to use, why would violence be needed?

I have friends with a range of religious views, we can discuss and respect each other without agreeing, I think that is more normal than stopping being friends with them!

But OddBoots you are friends and family. Not random strangers.

Frankly, I have some old friends and family who turned into racist (or probably always where) racist asshats, I don't have anything to do with them now, and why would I? Why would I associate myself with that?

Is it better and somehow more worthy to stay friends with racist's than to call them on their racist behavior and disassociate with them? Which is what you're saying people should do or they're not "coping".

Good God, what you wrote wasn’t rude or inciting hatred at all. You made a fair point about the plastic. Unless you kept droning on about it?

I think freedom of speech isn’t dead. People using freedom of speech to incite hatred are being called out though and I think this is what is pissing a lot of people off. You can’t be racist/xenophobic and other “ists”, using your “freedom of speech” tag anymore. The Charlie Hebdo “freedom of speech” taking the piss out of Islam was nothing more than inciting hatred. It was just like the Jewish long nosed and big eyed pictures that are now viewed as “anti-Semitic”. Free speech is not dead if you use it respectfully and are open to respectful discussions.

if you didn't agree with someone you would stop being friends with them

really? You'd stop being friends with everyone you didn't agree with on everything? And refusing to read papers that say things you don't agree with is not an especially wise move, and in fact is part of the problem being discussed. Maybe if more Guardian readers read the Mail or the Sun our country wouldn't be in the total headfuck int currently is.

I don't think the OP and others are talking legislatively here, you know, but societally.

YANBU.

There will be a backlash to the shitshow that is currently demonstrated on every medium.

Why would you stop calling out your friends if they said or did something you didn't find acceptable. I absolutely would call out a racist friend but I wouldn't stop talking to them because racists who are only talked to by other racists become more racist, it's a feedback thing.

I have homophobic friends and a lesbian daughter, I absolutely call them out on it and debate with them, I'm not going to leave them to only discuss it with other homophobes!

Free speech hasn't died. We just don't have to put up with sexist and racist and homophobic shit any more.

Totally agree, you can't say anything today without offending somebody

Free speech never gave you the powers to not offend anybody, though? It means you can't be prosecuted for speaking in ways the government doesn't like, unless in limited cases of hate speech or incitement to harm.

People are misusing the concept of free speech to shout down opinions they don't like or shut down arguments. Which is ironic.

"Before social media and the intranet if you didn't agree with someone you would stop being friends with them, or you would stop reading that newspaper, or you wouldn't vote for them, or you'd challenge them to a fight out back by the garbage cans."

Not the case for me and I'm a lot older than social media.

If you didn't agree with someone you would talk to them and put across your arguments, listen to theirs, challenge and ask questions, without it getting personal. You would deliberately read "that newspaper" to broaden your perspective. You would not "fight by the garbage cans" (rubbish bins?) or anywhere else.

I have had various friends with different and opposing views to mine on politics, Brexit, religion, abortion, hunting, vegetarianism, work, education, defence and various other controversial subjects. They have all been nice, thoughtful people who have made their choices based on what they genuinely believed was for the best.

Back in the day, people didn't generally air their opinions on controversial subjects to all and sundry. They might to their friends, but they didn't argue with strangers over it, which is what happens now on social media.
Which is also why I think that people are more bold with the xenophobic or racist speech nowadays- they surround themselves with like minded people online and think the majority agree with them. In the dark ages before facebook etc, they'd have to hunt out supporters in real life.

HennyPennyHorror there is sexist shit everywhere including on here. Have you read all the threads about boys being lovely, a bit lively and boisterous but so loving and uncomplicated, and girls being calm and easy and we'll behaved as toddlers but nightmare bitches as soon as they approach double figures?

Sexism is going strong - more so than 20 years ago IMO.