To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

Takethebuscuit
My response was based on reading your definition of zero tolerance definition to mean coming down hard on the 12 yo and punishing her rather than dealing with the behaviour. Perhaps this isn’t what you mean. I much prefer the approach of Amaryllis - very wise words. Yes to zero tolerance meaning supervision, separation and intervention.

Of course the behaviour toward the 7 yo needs to stop. But it will not be stopped by coming down hard on this troubled 12 yo child. She will just react by being even worse to her younger sister perhaps eventually learning to be more devious.

Think perhaps that the 7 yo ought to come live with you tbh.

She’s not safe in her own home

Think perhaps that the 7 yo ought to come live with you tbh.

Shit advice right there.

My niece behaved like this at the same age, her older brother having been diagnosed with autism some years before. On a family trip nobody else apart from her was allowed to sit next to her father, my brother. She was anxious and controlling. She got worse as years went by, dropping out of school and alienating most of her family.

At the age of 22 she too was diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum. So much misery might have been averted if we had known earlier.

So with regards to 0 tolerance what I meant was that as soon as she starts with the 7 year old she is immediately removed for the rest of the day I.e she is sent to another room for the rest of the day under constant supervision and then for the next week she looses privileges such as no phone or being banned from seeing her friends I know this sounds harsh but action is required what really made me think that a clamp down was needed was 7 yr old for a high five to celebrate her victory, then whispered something to her. 7 yr old started crying hysterically and came over to me for help. 12 yr old had spat into her hand before the high five, knowing it would cause 7 yr old to be extremely distressed. that is just bordering on sadistic. If this doesn’t work I honestly think the op should consider trying to move the 12 year old in with her or even getting her sister to get SS involved.

@Ewitsahooman could you elaborate? What is wrong with that advice as far as I can see it is the logical next step if 0 tolerance fails.

she is sent to another room for the rest of the day under constant supervision

Good luck with that. How is her mother supposed to do that with two other children?
And would she stay in the other room the entire day if it happened in the morning?
Then the week long punishments would start stacking up...

I'm even afraid to ask what would be expected from SS.

@Lweji presumably there will be another adult available to help out on the weekends such as the op, or the father (if he is on the scene which I am not sure about, a family friend, a grandparent, ect. The whole point is that the punishments start to pile up and the niece sees the negative consequences for her so hopefully stops. SS could help be potentially offering some kind of part time care to give the 7 Year old a break or some kind of therapy. And also the whole point of the system is to put a stop to the behaviour so when the niece has to go in a room on her own all day she will stop so the sanctions are therefore redundant- but still in place should they be needed.

@Takethebuscuitandthesink

That sounds completely impractical and unhelpful. She certainly needs to be separated from her sister purely so this sister is protected but she also needs intervention. It is not in the least bit normal to have this level of animosity towards a younger sister. It's obviously reflecting something going seriously wrong with this girl's emotional development. If you remove her phone for a week the weeks will soon rack up and she'll think well I've essentially got a life sentence so what have I got to loose or she'll get a lot more devious about not being found out.

They need to get to the root of the behaviour.

So, what is the mother going to do during the week? Or if she is alone? Or if she needs to go out?
Is she supposed to eat by herself too?

I don't think excluding children from contact for entire days is sound advice from an emotional point of view.
And it's not consistent. It could be for just a few minutes, if at night, or easily 12 hours, if in the morning.

Do you think being kept apart for 12 hours is an adequate punishment?

And your proposal doesn't address the behaviour or encourages good interactions. It just encourages alienation from the siblings and from the family.

Whereas the previous suggestion of close supervision, with modelling of positive interactions is much more healthy from an emotional point of view.

Takethebuscuitandthesink constant punishment is not a successful way to manage behaviour that is rooted in distress and low self-esteem.

It is likely to build more resentment and make her behaviour escalate.

There's also the obvious issue that there isn't going to be an adult available to sit in her room supervising her for hours at a moment's notice.

Successful behaviour management starts with understanding the root of the behaviour and finding ways to remove the reasons it is happening in the first place. All behaviour is communication. This 12 year old is communicating deep distress and it's down to the adults around her to listen and act to her her. Driving her self-esteem further into the ground won't help anyone.

It's fairly obvious extreme sanctions wouldn't help at all. This is why the girl needs professional intervention not advice from the internet which flies in the face of all child development knowledge. This is clearly not just naughty/selfish/bad behaviour it's entrenched behaviour which is clearly indicative of a serious issue with this girl. It's just not how a normally developing child with healthy self esteem and attachments would want to behave. You can't punish those problems away. You probably can't even punish her into stopping the behaviour (which is why supervision is necessary) let alone solving the underlying issues.

The 12 yo probably hasn’t received any attention since the 7 yo’s autism diagnosis. Poor girl needs 1 on 1 time with her aunt away from her family for a bit of special time. I bet the minute you get her to herself away from the pressure of living with a disabled sibling she would be as good as gold.

Never underestimate the pressure of living with a disabled sibling. It can cause all kinds of anxiety and issues if the parents use it as a way to play favourites which sounds like is happening here. It’s a shame because when all the kids are adults and proving 24-7 care for an autistic adult becomes soul-destroying the parents will wish they have their healthy kids around and by then both of them may have cut the parents off.

I speak from personal experience here.

Teddybear45, I'm sorry you've had a negative experience but it isn't fair to make these assumptions. Lots of parents who have a child with a disability do a great job of bringing up all of their children.

You can't possible derive from the OP's posts that the parents are playing favourites. In fact, most people have assumed quite the opposite.

Blaming the parents a quick easy hit that absolves education and health professionals from providing assessments and support. It not helpful for other parents to start saying it too.

I've essentially got a life sentence

But no she hasn’t as soon as she stops being unpleasant and bullying towards her sister then the sanctions will stop.

extreme sanctions

How exactly is that extreme it is commonly practiced to isolate trouble makers and to impose sanctions such as remove the phone or grounding. The hope is that with a system such as this will make the niece stop this behaviour and therefore the sanctions stop.

or even getting her sister to get SS involved.

Now that's not such a bad idea, if SS aren't involved already. SS are often involved in supporting children with disabilities and their families. They are often the gatekeepers for respite services, support for siblings, specialist holiday playschemes, etc., though of course these services are often cash-strapped and limited.

They will not remove the OP's eldest niece, in case that's what you imagine.

The hope is that with a system such as this will make the niece stop this behaviour

It doesn't work like that. If it did, no-one who had been to prison would ever re-offend.

she is sent to another room for the rest of the day under constant supervision

That's not very practical. What's her mother going to do, lock her in? Who's going to supervise? What if she wont stay in another room?

and then for the next week she looses privileges such as no phone

Which she may then take out on her sister, as that seems to be her go-to.

or being banned from seeing her friends

Do we know she has friends she sees out of school?

I am sure you mean well, and your suggestion is the kind of thing that works for ordinary misbehaviour, but have you ever had to turn around a deeply challenging child? Your idea just doesn't work.

Ewitsahooman could you elaborate? What is wrong with that advice as far as I can see it is the logical next step if 0 tolerance fails.

There are so many things wrong with that advice. OP has issues with her own children where one child potentially has neurodevelopment condition and another is being unkind, undermining her, etc. She has enough on her own plate without adding an autistic child to the household. It would have a negative impact on her own children as well as a negative impact on both nieces by widening the rifts in their own households.

it is commonly practiced to isolate trouble makers

And what success does that have in improving their behaviour?

Even if we go by Supernanny standards, she'd get 12 min on her own to think about her behaviour. Not 12 hours.

OP: "My niece is foul to her 7yo sister and I don't agree with how her mother handles it."

A lot of posters: "Have you considered she may have emotional needs that are not being met, stress of living with an autistic sibling, it's not down to you to discipline her or make parenting decisions because you are not the parent here."

How on earth is it the "logical next step" that OP has the 7yo to live with her!?

But no she hasn’t as soon as she stops being unpleasant and bullying towards her sister then the sanctions will stop.

A 12 year old, particularly one troubled enough to behave like this in the first place simply isn't going to be capable of that kind of long term planning. She obviously has huge levels of anger and resentment towards her sister probably amongst other emotional and social issues isolating her from the rest of the family and her friends won't be in the least bit helpful in resolving those issues.

Think perhaps that the 7 yo ought to come live with you tbh.

That is so wrong on many levels.

You clearly have no concept of the devastating consequences of taking a child of that age, especially an autistic child, from their parents to make them live with someone else.

Doing it because their sibling's behaviour is difficult sends destructive messages to all of the children.

It would achieve nothing and cause a huge amount of disruption and distress.

You don't fix families by splitting them up.

Some posts on this thread clearly demonstrate why the OP's sister should seek professional help instead of relying on "internet advice".

@AmaryllisNightAndDay the answers to all of your questions are upthread have you actually rtft?

Not 12 hours.

Eh, who mentioned 12 hours.

Also for those asking the niece was taken to the GP and the GP had no concern about any difficulties or SEN.