To be irritated by religious views...

[Frume]

I know I'll get flamed here. Of course it goes without saying that you are entitled to believe whatever you believe. And I understand that sometimes people turn to 'God' because that's their last hope. But..

My example that prompted me to write this...

I was on Instagram and catching up with a poor girl that I follow. She is 19 and has battled cancer 3 times. The page is updated by her mum and she says things like:-

'In Him we trust to heal his child'

'This is all part of His plan'

'He knows what he is doing'

Something good happens & then it's, 'God is good' or 'Thank you to Our Father in Heaven for making our prayers come true and healing his child'

Ok. Sure, that was it.. or probably science

The general 'Thoughts and prayers' when there is any kind of disaster. Because obviously that's all that's needed in a time of crisis.

I regard religious people in the same way I regard flat earthers.

Except that flat earthers are pretty much harmless.

I believe that man invented God because he didn’t want to believe there was no life after death.

I was reading the news article recently about the Scottish MP who has lost four of his five children,and he talked about how his faith had seen him through it. But when he broke it down, it basically came down to the fact that he took comfort in believing that those children were still out there, with a higher power, rather than that they were just dead, iyswim. And I can see why someone might choose to believe in a God over choosing to believe that there is no life after death in those circumstances.

But my problems with the belief in religion is that people very much pick and choose. Firstly, the belief is that God is responsible for the good. If we pray for people then we pray for their healing, we pray for their return to health, and when that happens we thank God. In the same way as when other things happen we thank God.

And yet when bad things happen that is put down to freedom of choice, and how God gave us freedom of choice,and when bad things happen it is because of that. Well surely you can’t have it both ways? If God is responsible for the good, then he is responsible for the bad. And if he isn’t responsible for the bad, then he isn’t responsible for the good either. So which is it?

Also I’ve noticed that the prayers are very much about heeling. You pray for heeling and if that doesn’t happen then you didn’t believe enough. A friend’s h had cancer and was diagnosed as terminal. On her timeline there were many, many posts from other Christians talking about how they were praying for his complete heeling, that he had to trust in the lord and he would be heeled, and soon. He wasn’t. He deteriorated very rapidly, and ultimately caught pneumonia and died. And the more his condition deteriorated, the less the support was present for him/his wife, as if he hadn’t believed enough hence why he was dying. And now he’s dead all those types have disappeared....

And finally,I am struggling to see why anyone would want to love and worship a god who A, demands love and worship, B, will only offer a life with him based on that love and worship, and talks about things like the day of reckoning when he will return to earth and the true believers will go with him whereas the rest will be condemned.

A God who allows the suffering of millions and millions of people and often talks that down in the name of a “test of faith,” and allows the world’s people to treat each other terribly even though he apparently has the power to change that.

If this was a human father we were talking about, if someone wrote on here “my father demands that we all love him and spend a day worshiping him while he rests, and has said that if we don’t he will disinherit us,” people would be telling that poster that they’re better off without someone like that in their lives and to go NC. But because it’s an alleged Heavenly Father we must all worship or fear the consequences? Why? Why if you wouldn’t put up with that from a fellow human bing, someone who is to all intents and purposes an abusive parent, would you seek to find more of it from a heavenly one?

I haven't read the full thread but your opening post made me think.

A couple of years ago a did HSCT because I had MS. It worked sand the progression stopped. You did it in groups and I was part of a group of 6. One of the women was very 'God' this and that. I know from mutual friends her progression has also stopped and she puts it all down to god.

I think if she wanted to get into it then actually it was her god that gave her the MS in the first place. It was the awesome and amazing doctors that halted the MS. But she disregards that and puts it all down to god.

Whatever floats your boat and all that. I just personally find the viewpoint a bit odd.

That's very sad about your friend's DH and the comments on the thread, Nocause. As a Christian who is long term I'll I've had my fair share of these kind of comments, though thankfully much less nowadays as times seem to change views for more nuanced and helpful ones. But it's hurtful to be on the end of such stuff about how you haven't had enough faith.

You might wonder why I'm still a Christian, given your very valid post above. For me it's not about a fear of an angry father who might smite me, but gratitude to a loving father who I know close to me in a life which is very narrowed and often painful. You might think then this is a crutch; a means to get through the darkness, and it is to an extent. But it's more than a crutch. It's a hope which soothes me in my deepest places, an unconditional love which doesn't turn away when I mess up (which I do). Sadly Christians through the ages have spread misconceptions and hatred in the name of God, but that doesn't mean God isn't good, just that humans get things wrong at times.

If this was a human father we were talking about, if someone wrote on here “my father demands that we all love him and spend a day worshiping him while he rests, and has said that if we don’t he will disinherit us,” people would be telling that poster that they’re better off without someone like that in their lives and to go NC.

They certainly would, and rightfully so. But may I turn that around a little? For me that is the opposite of what God does as a loving father. Instead of making demands, God gives choices, because God created humans with autonomy and that is an integral part of who we are, and therefore there can be no forcing into worship, or into eternity with God, for that too would be offending someone's agency if they wished to reject God. Scripture makes it clear God longs for all humanity to be reconciled to God, but that will be their decision.

So instead, what if there's a father who loves his children so much that he allows them to live as they wish, and to choose whether to love him and be with him? And what if that father welcomes them back with open arms, even when they've messed up in spectacular fashion?

For a Christian, worship is not duty and forced fear, but something borne out of love. It's simply spending time with a person you want to be with, and so worship is for the good of a person rather than for a God with a huge ego.

Slightly OT, but was anyone else a bit gobsmacked by the stuff in the news coverage of the Notre Dame fire about 'the real thorns that Jesus wore when he was crucified'? I mean WTAF reporting this nonsense with straight faces? Sure, the place was full of valuable antiques and artwork and fortunately most of it was saved, but that's a bit like insisting that a fire at the Harry Potter Experience nearly burned Harry's own fucking glasses...

Yes, personally, I find these messages irritating, but the mum is obviously a god botherer and this (rather bizarrely) gives her comfort.

If people want to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, far be it from me to stop them doing so. My only objection is when they expect you to believe what they believe and you to accord to their views. Forcing children to pray and telling them they'll go to hell if they read Harry Potter, or demanding that Christianity (and Christianity alone) be taught in schools. That kind of stuff.

@justarandomtricycle I don't understand why you feel the need to make personal remarks about someone you don't know at all .

If you disagree with an opinion you disagree no need to be rude and abusive.

There's a difference between those who have a belief and those who shun modern medicine cited here. I don't know anyone who believes in god over drs and in fact we have several drs including a neurosurgeon at our church!

hate it when people give thanks to God for things that are man made. "Thank you God for curing my cancer" how about thanking the scientists and medical professionals who actually helped you.
Has it not occurred to you that maybe people have actually thanked the scientists & medical professionals already (assuming they had the means to) and that thanking God isn't saying 'thank you God for doing it all yourself' but actually 'thank you God for putting these people in the right place at this time, thank you for guiding people when they've asked for your guidance and which has taken them down the career path to be able to provide this help, thank them on my behalf and thank you God for giving me the support to get through this when it was really difficult'?
Bad things are not part of God's plan. God permits bad things to happen as part of our fallen world and our choices. He doesn't will bad things to happen. He brings the good out of bad situations. Sometimes, we just can't see the good things.
This ^^. Religious wars - man's decision to force his views on others. Rape & murder - man's decision to go against society's (and God's) rules. Cancer - well sometimes poor choices by the individual or by the people around them or society generally. How many cancers are really caused by chemicals or 'stuff' in what we eat or breathe that wasn't planned by God?

Huh? Abusive? I don't think so. I did make one a comment with the expectation someone would say it sounded a bit condescending so I could point out that I was holding up a mirror, and that's what happened. As far as I can tell that point was made without massive hard feelings. :/

You are a nasty piece of work OP

Ah, I feel like a game of God Thread Bingo. Anyone care to join in?

Imaginary friend - check
Sky fairy - check
Capricious monster - check
Richard Dawkins - check
Flying spaghetti monster - check
Christians Are Stupid - check
Christians Are Smug - check
Tim Minchin Video - check
Harry Potter - check
Wars - check
Science - check
Strident Atheists - check
Flat Earthers - check

Any more? Come on! How about

Mithras/Horus/insert other pleasant ancient deity
Josephus
Richard Carrier
Faith Schools
Chinese Whispers
Operation Christmas Child

Any more?

As you were.

I think we had faith schools already, although it's all a blur at this point.

We probably did, justarandom. My mind probably blurred it out

You are a nasty piece of work OP

Name-calling without even an explanation for why. Scraping the barrel of discussion.

Yep. Christians do tend to blur our faith schools and other manifestations of Christian privilege and focus on anyone using disobliging language. So much easier to stay on the moral high ground that way........

Ah, Bert, I'm just poking a bit of gentle fun at these threads (and myself). If I really blurred over stuff and never engaged I might be haughtily taking the moral high ground, but as you know I rather enjoy these threads, and I'm scornful of faith schools admission procedures as you are. I don't believe myself any morally superior, I hope you know that by now. I've a load of respect for you - agree with you on everything bar this - so forgive me trying to lighten things, especially today.

Some of the least kind and most judgemental people I know are religious. The sort of people who have obvious favourites between their children, will cast out an adult non believing child, make spiteful bitchy comments just because they can. Religion doesn't seem to be doing them much good but it's existence allows them to feel smugly superior. And that's before I get into the shitty FB posts from nutters who think that people died horrible deaths because they didn't worship God properly and this what is they deserved!

When my sil nearly died giving birth, her family were all about thanking God that she lived, but it was the doctors who saved her and the baby. No thought as to why God would allow this to happen in the first place though.

I can't see that it does much for women generally - mostly it's used to control us and deny us bodily autonomy.

I get that it gives people comfort and that must be nice but I think we'd be better off as a society if we couldn't use religion as a justification for our own bad behaviour and had to own it ourselves.

I'm scornful of faith schools admission procedures

Not all faith schools have their own admission policies.

I work at one, we are a voluntary controlled school which means the local.authority handles our admissions in exactly the same way as any other secondary school. Parents have the option of submitting a form detailing any religious reasons they have for applying but it's by no means a guarantee of a place.

They sound horrible, iWannaSee. I wonder though if sometimes we notice more when horrible people purport to have faith or use religion in oppressive ways, a bit of confirmation bias possibly? There are nasty people everywhere, of all faiths and none. I do struggle when people use religion to justify anything like you say; for me it is so starkly far from the tenets of the faith I follow and I just don't get it. It makes me very angry, actually, because they misrepresent my faith.

Minty - yep, was talking about those schools who prioritise children from church going families when others in the area then struggle to find a place in a good school. Seems to me, again, to twist what our faith is about.

Years of study and life have led me to believe there is a spiritual component to human life, and a need to be nourished spiritually. If we do not address this need within ourselves it can be as damaging as a lack in any other aspect of human life - I would no more recommend this than scoffing at the idea of exercise, or the pursuit of knowledge.

How we do this is a matter of personal choice, but it's worth remembering that the diametrically opposed nature of Faith and Proof is not a revelation or even a compelling argument, it's a fundamental premise. Faith does not exist where there is scientific proof, one does not have faith in the existence of the dining room table.

It is a matter of trust and love. If I question your love of God, a member of your family or a pet I can feel like I have proven the folly of it, but you will look on it differently. If you trust your partner not to cheat on you then you trust, if you seek to obtain proof one way or another, this is not trust. Again you can argue against the folly of trust and feel you have proven a point, but there is a higher purpose to it, and that is not predicated in proof.

I hope you all have a good Easter and will pray for happiness, insight and spiritual nourishment for all here, whether you feel connected to our Lord right now or not. Be happy and be well.

The 10 commandments for example are still what most of our sense of right and wrong is based around.

I really don't think that we would all be going around raping and killing each other, let alone coveting our neighbours' belongings and spouses, if we'd never heard of the 10 commandments. Essentially they're a fairly common-sense exhortation to behave, with added religious bits.

For a Christian, worship is not duty and forced fear, but something borne out of love

Exactly. In Rome, the early Christians were thrown to the lions. They would have had less to fear had they renounced their faith, but most did not.

This. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, whatever they are.

The thing is, though, that no-one really thinks that. If someone's religion involves human sacrifice, or assuming that women are inferior to men, to that people of one particular race are superior to all others, do we really think that they're entitled to those beliefs, that they should be respected and it would be rude to challenge them?

They have no proof that He is imaginary

@Babdoc, I'm astonished that you, as a scientist, can come up with that statement. Surely it's just basic science, as well as basic logic, that you can't prove a negative? Would you say that big purple sky monsters must exist because there's no proof that they don't?

whereas millions of Christians have experienced direct contact with God in their lives or during prayer.

And, there again, you have no evidence that that is true. They feel that they have, no-one has ever produced evidence.