Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be irritated by religious views...

381 replies

Frume · 17/04/2019 21:49

I know I'll get flamed here. Of course it goes without saying that you are entitled to believe whatever you believe. And I understand that sometimes people turn to 'God' because that's their last hope. But..

My example that prompted me to write this...

I was on Instagram and catching up with a poor girl that I follow. She is 19 and has battled cancer 3 times. The page is updated by her mum and she says things like:-

'In Him we trust to heal his child'

'This is all part of His plan'

'He knows what he is doing'

Something good happens & then it's, 'God is good' or 'Thank you to Our Father in Heaven for making our prayers come true and healing his child'

Ok. Sure, that was it.. or probably science Hmm

The general 'Thoughts and prayers' when there is any kind of disaster. Because obviously that's all that's needed in a time of crisis.

OP posts:
AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 15:51

Not burning eternally in fire while being tormented. Nowhere does Jesus ever say this

Yes, he does.

He talks explicity about Hell...eternal torment, unquenchable fires, wailing and gnashing of teeth etc.

Stop googling apologetics and actually read the Bible...it’s there in black and white, I’m afraid. Undeniable.

And he only compared Hell to Gehenna....the comparison being that they are both horrible places you don’t want to be.

And all this, by the way, for daring to think differently from how he decided we should think. Hardly the actions of a benevolent “father”. More like an abusive one.

AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 15:53

Why would you want to go into details about Gehenna? It was a rubbish dump. Did you think it was some kind of spiritual realm or something?

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 16:12

Yes, he does. He talks explicity about Hell...eternal torment, unquenchable fires, wailing and gnashing of teeth etc.

No, he doesn't. He talks explicitly about hell as destruction, he does not mention torment, he mentions unquenchable fires in the context of OT references about fires which burn and destroy, and he never gives an eternal time frame to weeping and gnashing of teeth. So his references are to do with death and punishment, and that may seem harsh - but in the light of the evil depravity some stoop to, really not so much - and not at all in the realm of torturing people in fire for eternity.

Why would you want to go into details about Gehenna? It was a rubbish dump. Did you think it was some kind of spiritual realm or something?

Jesus' references to 'hell' often use the noun Gehenna, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew “valley of [the sons of] Hinnom.” This was a place his audience would have immediately understood the reference to, in terms of OT events. They'd have known he was referring to a complete destruction of those who commit grevious harm - the valley was once a place where idol worshippers burned up children as sacrifices to their gods, and the OT speaks of God's vengeance on gehenna. The 'eternal fire' spoken of was a reiteration of this - of punishment which is final and eternal, from an eternal source but not going on for eternity.

The Bible is full of references to God offering eternal life to those who accept, but doesn't ever make claims about the immortality of all. It also makes many claims about how in the end all death, destruction and evil will be done away with - all tears wiped away, all mourning ceased.

This is not a result of a quick Google of apologetics, but a process of textual criticism and hermeneutics applied rigourously to the texts.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 16:14

*does not mention eternal torment

AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 16:43

Sorry, but no. You (and the website you’re cribbing from) have made all that up. I understand why (it’s embarrassing

The only reason we have even heard of Hell is because Jesus talked about it....far, far more than anyone else in the Bible ever did. The OT didn’t really have a concept of Hell...at least not as a place where you’d go and be tortured for eternity. (Hades was not Hell). In the OT, once you were that, that was basically it.

No, Jesus showed up with charming imagery of eternal punishment. He frequently referenced fires, torment and agony. And those are the very words he used whether you like it or not.

(Not sure what you mean by “timeframe”. Eternal means eternal).

Even if he didn’t mean it literally (and there NOTHING in the NT that suggests he didn’t) then it’s still a message that “very, very bad things will happen to you if you don’t think the way I insist you do”.

That’s a thoroughly evil doctrine that not even babble about references to the OT & claims of parable/metaphor can escape.

I will leave you to it, though. On principle, I refuse to waste my time discussing anything with someone who denies what’s written down in black and white.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 17:21

@AllAboutMeAlways

To be clear, I am not doubting hell's exisitance and I agree that Hell is a final destination.

However, what I have pointed out is that Hell can be interpreted as being an eternal separation (your choice) from God which feels as Jesus has described. As mentioned, Jesus used parables and metaphors through almost all of His teachings.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 17:22

The thing is, instead of denying what is written down, I am carefully examining what is written down, and extrapolating the meaning as reported, rather than the meaning centuries of men in power have attached to it. The history of the concept of hell as eternal torment n Christianity is very interesting - until Augustine, that concept really was not in the minds of the early church fathers, because they read Jesus' sayings as they were: explicit images, no doubt, but of destruction, not eternal torment. They knew what Jesus meant by eternal fire, they knew that in Jude Sodom and Gomorrah were pointed to as having been destroyed by eternal fire as an example of what would happen to those who were evil, and they knew that Sodom and Gomorrah were utterly destroyed. That the fire was eternal because it was from an eternal source, that eternal fire didn't mean eternal torment, but quite the opposite. They knew Jesus' many references to gehenna were pointing out the destruction of the wicked. The idea of an immortal soul suffering for eternity was not in their paradigm.

But good old Augustine decided he liked a bit of Plato, and so went with the idea of the immortal soul. The Roman Catholic church began to twist scripture to suit them, and so used it as an oppressive tool, and then here comes Dante and suddenly we have this doctrine which was never intended.

The OT didn’t really have a concept of Hell...at least not as a place where you’d go and be tortured for eternity. (Hades was not Hell). In the OT, once you were that, that was basically it.

That is exactly what I am saying - I apologise if I am being clumsy. Jesus was talking to an audience who knew what he meant by gehenna, and who knew what he meant by eternal fire in that context. He was talking to an audience who knew what he meant by eternal punishment, the noun being one used many times in the context of something which has happened and is final - the eternal being the result of it (eg eternal sin, eternal judgment - the everlasting outcome of a process, not the everlasting process)

Jesus backed up the OT thinking about Hades as the place of the dead, and talked of eternal life as an offer for those who wished - but never eternal torment for those who didn't, simply the end, as the Jews thought. (Some thought there would be a process of years in gehenna through to eternal life, but that's another story Grin )

*He frequently referenced fires, torment and agony. And those are the very words he used whether you like it or not. (Not sure what you mean by “timeframe”. Eternal means eternal).^

Yes, he did, which I've said from the start. But he never placed these things into an eternal time frame. Jesus was serious about judgment of the evil, and when we see the most evil things in this world, we perhaps understand why. But over and above that he talked of mercy, of love, of acceptance, of open arms, of forgiveness.

And the entirety of the Bible upholds the idea that there are not, actually, immortal souls bound one way or the other. The most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16, says 'for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that those who believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.' it doesn't say that those who don't have eternal life will be tortured forever, it says perish.

There's also the Christian universalist position, which is another story, but many mainstream scholars accept the conditionalist position as the best interpretation (in fact the only one that can be truly backed up.)

I have not made it up. I have come to this position as a result of years of careful study and application, and it is a well-known and mainstream position.

Instead of denying it, I am attempting to shine light on it, because I believe that scripture deserves to be known as it was written and intended as far as possible, as do any texts in antiquity.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 17:35

Anyway, we've come too far from the OPs first question, which was a fairly reasonable one in general, though perhaps not applied specifically to that situation. Sorry for the derail, OP.

Happy Easter to you all!

Hushnownobodycares · 20/04/2019 18:04

They'd have known he was referring to a complete destruction of those who commit grevious harm

his references are to do with death and punishment, and that may seem harsh - but in the light of the evil depravity some stoop to, really not so much

But there aren't any distinctions between degrees of sin or depravity. Without Jesus we are all equally condemned and all condemned to the same punishment.

The Bible is clear that ...God is about grace and mercy instead of fear and torment

Not the whole bible. The NT rebranding can't hide the fact that the OT God is a genocidal maniac. Doesn't bode well for the claimed unchanging nature of God.

Hell can be interpreted as being an eternal separation (your choice) from God

That's word for word the kind of back peddling I've seen emerge over decades worth of sermons. 50 years ago hell was sold as torment in a fiery pit with no coming back. As stated in the bible.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 18:22

Hush, I don't try to explain away the difficulties in the OT. But I do know that all through, God's desire for justice for the oppressed and the needy is paramount, and his nature of love and mercy is far, far more often mentioned than retribution. But there's also the judgment side, which as we've said Jesus doesn't shy away from. I'm not trying it pretend it isn't there, but simply to get away from a narrative about what hell is that has been used to oppress. Of course I wish I had a nice neat answer to the OT reports of a God of war etc. I know hyperbole was often used, and there are difficulties in translation, and the worldview was just so, so different. The OT is a story of a people gradually coming to understand who God is and his desire for justice and mercy, and messing up over and over.

The reason I believe always comes back to Jesus, and the person he is and claims he makes. I believe he is God incarnate, and so the character of God is revealed in him, and it's a character that prioritises grace, mercy and over all, love. Love that gives choices, that isn't forceful, isn't quick to anger, that forgives freely and that gives all of itself. And Jesus got into the mess with us, so we have a God who doesn't stay away or pronounce judgment from afar, but one who experienced the pain we experience and took the entirety of human evil and agony upon him. And in the end, who conquered death, and so leaves us with indescribable hope.

I know the picture is incomplete - but it is nonetheless a beautiful picture to me, one of incredible grace and love that brings us into freedom.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 18:34

@Hushnownobodycares

The Catholic teaching is that your final judgement is upon your death and it is permenant (not sure where you have seen me say anything different). You have gone face-to-face with God. I'm stating that the idea of hell can be seen as a separation of God.

However, God's mercy is boundless so we can't say that anyone is in hell other than Satan.

Hushnownobodycares · 20/04/2019 19:01

Separation from God might be implied in the bible (a chasm no-one can cross) but it's not the full biblical picture. I'm suggesting the church has watered down or glossed over some of the more unpalatable bits over the years in a bid to make itself more appealing.

If the final judgement happens at our death where does the second coming and the sorting of the sheep from the goats fit in?

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 19:13

That's your right to believe but I don't think it is a watering down. Firstly, we are not sola scripta so don't take everything in the bible as literal. We also believe the Holy Spirit guides church teachings. I'm saying that it is an interpretation. I don't intend on separating myself from God so don't plan to find out.

When each of us dies, our souls are immediately judged by God. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first for a while (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there (heaven or hell) until the end of time, at which time the Second Coming will occur.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive and who are in a state of sanctifying grace will be taken to heaven (what some Protestants think of as of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the souls of the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all, so that both the justice and mercy of God will be manifest to all. No one will wonder why someone they thought was going to heaven is not there, and why someone they thought might not make it to heaven is there. We will basically have full understanding.

Then we believe that we are reunited with our glorified bodies (how these will look is open to speculation) and begin the life to come.

madcatladyforever · 20/04/2019 19:17

I hate it when religious beliefs get in the way of my relationships with people. A relative I love dearly and would love to see more of forces christian beliefs down my neck at every opportunity but refuses to set foot in my house because I have pagan decor up which is apparently "satanic". It makes me sad beyond belief.
Surely if your God is so powerful you can come to my house and be unharmed. I never ever discuss my beliefs with anyone.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 20/04/2019 19:23

Jesus often spoke in parables and metaphors
Its funny how some people are so sure what Jesus was like, as if they knew him in real life. Rather than interpretation from a 2000 year old book by an unknown author, that can't be taken literally, about a man that cant be proved to have even existed.

Hell can be interpreted as being an eternal separation (your choice) from God

Not sure how that is our choice when god has a gun at our heads? He is forcing us to worship him or be sent to hell, just like a tyrannical dictator would do.

God's mercy is boundless
Pretty sure their is a boundary, as he only includes people who worship him. So definitely not boundless.

Patroclus · 20/04/2019 20:11

@intensiveeveline

I accept that the USSR wasnt a religious regime at all, but the idea that religion was 'banned' is a misconception.

The Bolsheviks had a problem with the institution of the church-- as a competitor for power over individuality, with its support for the Tsar and class structures. But outside of church business Stalin actually referenced God himself a lot, especially appealing to him in speehes during Germany's invasion. Im not convinved he was an atheist. He had several priests at his funeral. Religion was practised pretty openly in the USSR, with synagogues generally passing under the radar als.

I mention this because all too often people pull out the 'USSR was atheist, therefore atheism is evil' shite.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 20:30

@Walkingdeadfangirl

  1. Firstly, I do know Jesus. Wink
Secondly, almost all of Jesus's teachings in the NT are told through parables and metaphors. Ways that we could understand. Parable of Mustard seed, prodigal song, sower, etc. So I don't think I'm quite putting words in His mouth.
  1. Wouldn't it be more tyrannical to force someone who doesn't want to be with God to be with Him for all eternity? To quote C S Lewis again today : “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it.
  2. God's love, justice and mercy is boundless to Saints and repenting sinners. Regarding mercy - If you don't repentant for a sin and don't want forgiveness - how could God forgive you? This links into the 'unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit' of which a book probably has been written. It's not my pay grade to talk about God's mercy towards people of no faiths/other faiths but I believe (and hope) that God's mercy extends to all.
Hushnownobodycares · 20/04/2019 20:30

so don't take everything in the bible as literal

Cherry picking the bits that fit the current narrative then and 'interpreting' the bits that don't.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 20:43

If cherry picking extends to the formation of early church and across all generations and narratives....

The Church has the authority to do so, the individual does not. Said authority comes from God. We believe the Church teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Rostbif · 20/04/2019 20:52

NoCauseRebel - Yes! Exactly this.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 22:17

Cherry picking the bits that fit the current narrative then and 'interpreting' the bits that don't

But you have to interpret ancient documents. It's historical method to understand what it is saying. It's hermeneutics, not cherry picking. Of course there will be some ambiguity and disagreement, but the central tenets of the faith are the same, and we can understand a remarkable amount of what the early church believed with the wealth of manuscripts we have and the extra biblical stuff too. And our faith is centred on Jesus, his teachings, his claims and his life, death and resurrection, which are unchanging tenets. Myself and whatisfreddoingnow most likely don't agree on everything, but I imagine we do on the centrality of Jesus, his mission and resurrection, and that's what fires us and inspires us.

FiddlesticksAkimbo · 20/04/2019 23:08

The desperate ventures into "biblical scholarship" and "hermeneutics" always put me in mind of a battered wife trying desperately to excuse her cheating husband. We've caught him out by finding what is clearly a text message to the other woman. But miraculously by a process of exhaustive "textual analysis and hermeneutics" he manages to construct some ludicrously contrived interpretation in which all the words mean something else, and he's off the hook!

As a separate point, why the hell can't the supreme deity actually write what he means, or at least "inspire" others to do so?

Remember Richard Dawkins famous rant?
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

To this we could add: "the most incompetent communicator of all time". The Bible has all sorts of outlandish claims made on its behalf for its own profound importance. If god wanted us to understand the nature of hell (or a thousand other things vital to our existence apparently) why not express it clearly? Why write half of it in riddles, make the other half deadly serious and literal, but not tell us which half is which? If he wants us to live by its tenets why make it so impenetrably badly expressed that no one can agree what it means, to the extent that it seems for pretty much 2,000 years people got the wrong end of the stick about crucial parts of its message.

Obviously all these questions are rhetorical, because I find the basic premise that god exists to be highly unconvincing! But religions really don't help themselves with these equally unconvincing attempts to dig themselves out of holes of their own making. They could at least accept what their own holy books say. Instead it often seems like they want to adopt a rational moral philosophy (highly laudable) and then perform a square-peg-round-hole operation on their scriptures.

Acis · 20/04/2019 23:15

But as C S Lewis said "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Those who are there choose to be separated from God. God doesn't will that

Surely an omnipotent god can prevent that from happening, and would want to do so in order to benefit everyone.

Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all, so that both the justice and mercy of God will be manifest to all.

Mercy? He brings everyone together, says sorry guys, you're going straight back to Purgatory/hell, I was right all along, byeeee" and that's merciful?

Acis · 20/04/2019 23:18

Wouldn't it be more tyrannical to force someone who doesn't want to be with God to be with Him for all eternity?

Presumably not, if Jesus wanted all of this as an incentive to behave whilst alive and to worship. Isn't he telling us that it's something desirable? Otherwise what would the point be? Would he be saying "Yeah, you can worship god and spend time with him for ever, but if you don't fancy that you needn't and you'll be absolutely fine, you won't be missing out on anything"? If so, why?

Acis · 20/04/2019 23:21

If you don't repentant for a sin and don't want forgiveness - how could God forgive you?

Given that his son told us we should forgive each other seventy times seven, that would be a pretty hypocritical stance to take. I don't recall anything in the Bible saying that we don't need to bother to forgive unless the person who's sinned against us actually wants to be forgiven.