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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be irritated by religious views...

381 replies

Frume · 17/04/2019 21:49

I know I'll get flamed here. Of course it goes without saying that you are entitled to believe whatever you believe. And I understand that sometimes people turn to 'God' because that's their last hope. But..

My example that prompted me to write this...

I was on Instagram and catching up with a poor girl that I follow. She is 19 and has battled cancer 3 times. The page is updated by her mum and she says things like:-

'In Him we trust to heal his child'

'This is all part of His plan'

'He knows what he is doing'

Something good happens & then it's, 'God is good' or 'Thank you to Our Father in Heaven for making our prayers come true and healing his child'

Ok. Sure, that was it.. or probably science Hmm

The general 'Thoughts and prayers' when there is any kind of disaster. Because obviously that's all that's needed in a time of crisis.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 20/04/2019 08:50

I may not know that you were a Christian. But I cannot fail to know that I live in a country where Christian privilege is alive and well....

BertrandRussell · 20/04/2019 08:52

Oh, and the Bible is not a book of historical fact. And yes, I have read it. Several times. Which is why I can and do quote scripture for my own purposes.........[gein]

BertrandRussell · 20/04/2019 08:52

Or even Grin

sighrollseyes · 20/04/2019 08:55

When you go through a tough time - cancer, family issues whatever, see how you feel if people judge you for whatever you choose to be your "comfort". For some it will be religion, others it will be something else but whatever gets them through it!

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 08:55

@JQBased

As I don't follow the Bible in a literal sense, I can see the ignorance when mention is made of 'sky fairies' and a 'man in the sky'.

I always raise my eyebrows at this because I don't know any Christians who believes there is a man in the sky.

I think it is used to try to simplise (and diminish) people's beliefs in an arrogant way but only serves to indicate a total lack of theological understanding.

Meadowland · 20/04/2019 08:56

@Hushnow. My dsis and I were both brought up in loving Christian households.
We both decided to leave the faith with absolutely no sense of fear or guilt.
I did decide to return to faith later as I felt there was something missing in my life.
I now feel complete and fulfilled, and very much part of a loving church community.
But purely my decision, no brainwashing, fear or guilt.

intensiveeveline · 20/04/2019 09:13

Stoicism - Influence on Christianity

I have been reading a lot of Stoic writings lately and was surprised at how often God was mentioned - something I did not expect.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

In his introduction to the 1964 Penguin Classics edition of Meditations, the Anglican priest Maxwell Staniforth discussed the profound impact Stoicism had on Christianity. He claimed the author of the Fourth Gospel declared Christ to be the Logos, which "had long been one of the leading terms of Stoicism, chosen originally for the purpose of explaining how deity came into relation with the universe".[39] In St. Ambrose of Milan's Duties, "The voice is the voice of a Christian bishop, but the precepts are those of Zeno."[40][41] Regarding what he called "the Divine Spirit", Stanisforth wrote:

Cleanthes, wishing to give more explicit meaning to Zeno's 'creative fire', had been the first to hit upon the term pneuma, or 'spirit', to describe it. Like fire, this intelligent 'spirit' was imagined as a tenuous substance akin to a current of air or breath, but essentially possessing the quality of warmth; it was immanent in the universe as God, and in man as the soul and life-giving principle. Clearly it is not a long step from this to the 'Holy Spirit' of Christian theology, the 'Lord and Giver of life', visibly manifested as tongues of fire at Pentecost and ever since associated—in the Christian as in the Stoic mind—with the ideas of vital fire and beneficient warmth.[42]

Regarding the Trinity, Staniforth wrote:

Again in the doctrine of the Trinity, the ecclesiastical conception of Father, Word, and Spirit finds its germ in the different Stoic names of the Divine Unity. Thus Seneca, writing of the supreme Power which shapes the universe, states, 'This Power we sometimes call the All-ruling God, sometimes the incorporeal Wisdom, sometimes the holy Spirit, sometimes Destiny.' The Church had only to reject the last of these terms to arrive at its own acceptable definition of the Divine Nature; while the further assertion 'these three are One', which the modern mind finds paradoxical, was no more than commonplace to those familiar with Stoic notions.[42]

The apostle Paul met with Stoics during his stay in Athens, reported in Acts 17:16–18. In his letters, Paul reflected heavily from his knowledge of Stoic philosophy, using Stoic terms and metaphors to assist his new Gentile converts in their understanding of Christianity.[43] Stoic influence can also be seen in the works of St. Ambrose, Marcus Minucius Felix, and Tertullian.[44]

The Fathers of the Church regarded Stoicism as a "pagan philosophy";[45][46] nonetheless, early Christian writers employed some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience".[23] But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind,[23] and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments. Both encourage Ascesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions such as lust, and envy, so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed.

Stoic writings such as Meditations by Marcus Aurelius have been highly regarded by many Christians throughout the centuries. The Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church accept the Stoic ideal of dispassion to this day.

Middle and Roman Stoics taught that sex is just within marriage, for unitive and procreative purposes only.[47][48] This teaching is accepted by the Catholic Church to this day.[49]

Saint Ambrose of Milan was known for applying Stoic philosophy to his theology.

Hushnownobodycares · 20/04/2019 11:38

Darwin even stated that with all his research and discovery and study he concluded that there has to be a God?

Given the pervasiveness of religious culture at the time Darwin would have been finished had he said anything but.

StoatofDisarray · 20/04/2019 11:55

Hush has it exactly right.

echt · 20/04/2019 11:58

And had Darwin concluded that there was a God, it doesn't mean he was right.

Because there isn't.

Hushnownobodycares · 20/04/2019 12:03

The Bible says that perfect love casts out all fear, so fear tactics seem far from who Jesus was. He was serious about people messing up and harming others, but was always firstly about grace and love

Well given the message is that we have to love Jesus so he can save us from what his dad's going to do to us if we don't (and let's not forget that's eternally even though we're here for the blink of an eyelid in comparison) it makes it hard to subscribe to the no fear tactics thing.

BertrandRussell · 20/04/2019 12:15

Reminds me of my father’s favourite joke - “It’s the Stoic that brings babies and the Cynic is where you take them to get them weighed.......”

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 14:34

Well given the message is that we have to love Jesus so he can save us from what his dad's going to do to us if we don't (and let's not forget that's eternally even though we're here for the blink of an eyelid in comparison)

Thankfully eternal torment is not actually a biblical position, but a narrative formed over years and used as a tool of oppression, especially in medieval times. The Bible is clear that God longs for all to be reconciled with him, that God is about grace and mercy instead of fear and torment. It's also clear God is a God of justice, and when I see all the atrocities that humans do, I am glad of it. But the position for eternal torment in fire is a twisting of scripture, a use of a parable where the message was about how we treat one another, and the use of some words from Revelation, that book we all know we should take so literally Grin

The salvation narrative is about a choice to be with God in eternity or not. There is no eternity outside God and outside good. It's a mainstream position now in Christian thought, and having dug into it myself I'm convinced that eternal hell was never a thing.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 14:37

Just adding to that - the salvation narrative isn't just about that, of course - that was just addressing the concept of hell. It's about transformation here in this life, about honouring one another, about filling our empty spaces and imbuing us with hope that goes beyond circumstances and peace that goes beyond understanding.

AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 14:46

Thankfully eternal torment is not actually a biblical position

Oh yes it is. It was gentle Jesus, meek and mild who clued us in on what would happen if we didn’t love him/his dad enough.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 14:46

Hell is an eternal separation from God. Just the thought of that makes my heart bleed.

But as C S Lewis said "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Those who are there choose to be separated from God. God doesn't will that.

AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 14:48

What exactly is the point of the Bible, MadHairDay if you’re just going to re-write the bits you don’t like?

Nothing that you are claiming appears anywhere in the Bible.

AllAboutMeAlways · 20/04/2019 14:49

Whatis That’s not what Jesus said, is it?

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 14:52

@AllAboutMeAlways
He whipped money changers from the temple. Not so mild.

He was fierce. Fierce in His love and His mercy.

StoatofDisarray · 20/04/2019 14:56

Jesus talked about hell a lot, in gruesome detail, in Luke, Mark and Matthew. I don't think you can simply shrug it off.

WhatisFreddoingnow · 20/04/2019 14:57

@AllAboutMeAlways

Jesus often spoke in parables and metaphors. I have no doubt that eternal separation from God would feel like a "blazing furnace" and "there will be tears and bitter regret” and it will feel like being thrown into a fire.

These are all ways to warn what hell would feel like.

doskant · 20/04/2019 14:57

I don’t understand people’s fixation on social media. There are so many annoyances you can’t avoid in life - the endless chatter at work, the over-perfumed on a packed train, the unexpected dental bill. Yet people deliberately look at content online that irritates them.

doskant · 20/04/2019 14:58

Repeatedly

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 15:00

What exactly is the point of the Bible, MadHairDay if you’re just going to re-write the bits you don’t like?

I haven't rewritten anything. I take the Bible very seriously, as the inspired word of God. It doesn't mean that I take every word literally, but it means I weigh every word, look into the context of every word and pray into them too. The Bible is a joy to me, it brings to life who God is, it lights my path.

Oh yes it is. It was gentle Jesus, meek and mild who clued us in on what would happen if we didn’t love him/his dad enough

He really didn't. Not in the sense of eternal conscious torment. He made references to Gehenna and the fate of the wicked, so calling his audience's mind to references they all would have been aware of from OT times as well as their own times, references of the wicked being completely consumed by fire. Not burning eternally in fire while being tormented. Nowhere does Jesus ever say this.

Madhairday · 20/04/2019 15:04

His intention in calling those images to mind would have been about condemning those who acted in evil ways, while calling people to repent and turn to God. I can go into all sorts of detail about each and every passage that mentions gehenna, if you like, but it would be terribly tedious.

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