Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Original poster

AIBU to dock this employees pay

202 replies

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 19:53

I have an employee who is employed 5 days per week but one of these days is spent at University studying for a professional qualification, the company also funds the course fees as this will be a benefit to us in the long term. This employee works in another office and therefore I don’t have direct daily contact. Today would normally be a university day but they are now on Easter holidays so I called to speak to her only to find she hadn’t come into work because Tuesdays are her uni day! Next week the same person has booked Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off as annual leave, no mention of Tuesday although she clearly is away for the entire week despite being paid to work Tuesdays. This is is more of a wwyd I suppose. I expect her in work if not pursuing the professional qualification, I expect extra study time to be completed in her own time as I personally feel being paid to study and having her course fees covered is perk enough so I don’t think calling the days ‘study days’ is good enough should that excuse be given. In any case I very much doubt she intends to take ‘study’ away on holiday despite it being a paid work day. It feels a bit CF

OP posts:

Yabbers · 15/04/2019 22:35

I think you’ll find many small to medium businesses struggle with stuff like this because they lack the funds to employ people to put in place operating models

I think you’ll find there are a whole heap of places you can go for advice which don't cost a fortune and that if you want to run a business you can’t just run the HR side of it on a wing and a prayer, using google. It should be built in to the cost of running a business and any professional should know that.

You don’t know she wasn’t at Uni. She could have been in the library or in an informal study group, doing coursework. The problem is you’ve assumed she is a slacker. You are calling her a CF when you haven’t even bothered to draw up a proper agreement. It sounds like you didn’t want her to do the course but couldn’t say no. It would be an incredibly bizarre situation for any business, let alone such a small one to pay for a training course for a member of staff from which the company doesn’t benefit.

Did you do any training at all about how to run a business?

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:37

Can you ring ACAS if you have no affiliation with them ? I thought it was a subscription type thing

OP posts:

ItsPeanutButterJelly · 15/04/2019 22:39

Uni may not be on but she'll almost certainly have deadlines over Easter so won't she be expected to do uni work, be that at home, in the library, etc. on that day?

The qualification will benefit the business in the long term, so your responsibility to to make it clear what's expected of her insofar as work and uni goes - if she fails her course because you demand she be at work whenever lectures aren't happening then that's £1000s down the toilet

safariboot · 15/04/2019 22:39

There are enough responses here to demonstrate it's common practice for the day off to still be a day off during the holidays. Not universal practice, but common. Since you were never clear either way, YABVU to discipline your employee for this, never mind trying to withhold their pay.

It's also arguably too late to demand your employee work tomorrow. All you can do is get things made definite for future uni holidays.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/04/2019 22:40

Can you ring ACAS if you have no affiliation with them ? I thought it was a subscription type thing

What kind of business is it you say you run?

bfy.tw/HVRu

Kahlua4me · 15/04/2019 22:44

I run my own business and if college was closed I would expect our apprentice to be at work.
If he has study to do I would probably let him stay at home and complete it but only after discussing it with me, it certainly isn’t a given that he is off on a Tuesday regardless.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:46

I think I was being positive in attempt to present a balanced OP when I said it would be a benefit to us. It sort of will, but in a we could have managed fine without way, others in the team have the same qualification, she isn’t filling a void unless they all leave. We have a pretty low staff turnover so some of our less professional attitudes are well received, most people talk as though this is a job for life scenario. I doubt in reality we’ll ever need her to have it, it seemed unkind not to support her wanting to hold it too which I appreciate isn’t a business like reason to have agreed to her doing it.

OP posts:

cstaff · 15/04/2019 22:48

Why are people being so hard on the OP. She made a mistake and has admitted it and is looking for advice on how to make things right.

If her employee hadn't been such a piss taker she wouldn't be in this position. If you have HR experience give her some advice. That is all she needs.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:53

The docking pay title seemed more catchy than AIBU to call this person in and ask why they hadn’t booked a particular day off as holiday despite booking days either side and then jetting off to lay on a beach whilst still getting paid on said day.

OP posts:

Haffiana · 15/04/2019 22:55

Nah. I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it is simply unbelievable that you employ anyone.

saraclara · 15/04/2019 23:01

To be honest, in her position I'd not have gone into work either. I'd have taken it as a study day.
Workplaces are different from each other, but at mine, there wouldn't have been anything scheduled for me to do there anyway.
Should she have asked? Maybe. But I'm surprised at the number of people saying that they'd have gone in to work.
Would her presence on that day REALLY have made a big difference to anyone's workload?

Ghanagirl · 15/04/2019 23:01

@Fruitsaladjelly
When you say employee do you own the company or are you her line manager?

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 23:04

Thanks cstaff , I do realise I’m really naive about some stuff, I put all my effort into trying to build other parts of the business but this is an area I’m weak in. In reality we prob could afford an HR person but instead we use the money we pay our staff really well by industry standards (likely why we don’t have many people leave) it’s a hard merry go round to get off, I wouldn’t want to cut pay but we could just not offer pay rises for a really long time until we had the funds to get someone on board to handle this type of thing but that is unlikely to be well received

OP posts:

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 23:11

Saraclara- yes it really does make a difference, we aren’t a big team, the original request to study was a stretch for us, she knows this.

OP posts:

BarbaraofSevillle · 15/04/2019 23:11

I went to university on day release from my employer and it never occurred to me not to go to work during the holidays. If there are no classes, you go to work. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

Ghanagirl · 15/04/2019 23:11

@Fruitsaladjelly
I’m confused do you own the company or are you her line manager as surely it’s down to the owner or shareholders.

Missingstreetlife · 15/04/2019 23:13

Try speaking to her before you threaten. Compare expectations. Consult acas. Do it properly next time. Fucking bosses

Haffiana · 15/04/2019 23:14

In reality we prob could afford an HR person but instead we use the money we pay our staff really well by industry standards (likely why we don’t have many people leave) it’s a hard merry go round to get off, I wouldn’t want to cut pay but we could just not offer pay rises for a really long time until we had the funds to get someone on board to handle this type of thing but that is unlikely to be well received

Except that no, no actual small business owner would employ a full time HR person. (And wouldn't be blaming/penalising their staff for having to fund it either OR be asking their opinion about it, but then that is just your usual MO, isn't it?)

What a sane small business owner would do is what every small business ACTUALLY does do. They would hire the services of a small HR company to handle all their contracts and HR needs. For a modest monthly sum.

You are a jealous co-worker. There is no way you could run a company with all these sulks and silly ideas.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 15/04/2019 23:14

Apart from the HR side of things (which aren't that complicated really, you just need to be clear), it seems to be amazingly generous that you are paying for her to do the course but still paying the same salary too. We have apprentices who we fund through college but their pay is lower to take that into account. Sometimes being over generous doesn't actually give you loyalty from an employee...

Rach182 · 15/04/2019 23:14

Well given that you haven't changed the contract then her working hours are still 5 days a week so I think it would be reasonable to give her a warning for not working her contract. Then set out the clear expectations in writing going forward.

I say this as someone who has studied two courses at 2 separate workplaces- one paid the course fees in full, the other loaned the fees and I paid back in the form of a pre-tax salary reduction (more.tax efficient)... I didn't have an agreement either time just a verbal arrangement. But I knew and respected my working hours as the course was my personal choice to upskill myself and I was lucky work supported me. I never took the piss and definitely went into work during course breaks and missed classes when work was too busy.

Doesn't matter if she's genuinely studying during course breaks... if she wanted the lifestyle of studying full time, she should quit work to facilitate this. If she's chosen to earn while studying, then she needs to fit those studies around work. It's what evenings, weekends and annual leave is for.

TheGodmother · 15/04/2019 23:15

You're NOT an idiot and YES she is completely taking the piss!

Not only are you paying her for 5 days a week you're paying her course!!

Get her in the office next time and say you're taking her annual leave off her. What's she gonna do? Cheeky fucker!

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 15/04/2019 23:16

Haffiana, that is nonsense, loads of companies have no HR department and don't hire it in either.

gettingtherequickly · 15/04/2019 23:18

Sorry if I've missed it, but does it say in her contract that she pays back the cost of the course if she leaves in x,y,z months? If not, it should, and no, she shouldn't be taking time off when she isn't at colllege, having a course paid for, that you have Day release for, is a brilliant perk and should be seen as a huge benefit.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 23:21

When I say we don’t have many people leave, in fact there have been just two. One was stealing from us on a grand ish scale ie not pens and printer paper. We allowed them to resign rather than face the music. The other left, experienced work in the real world where everything is very formally laid out and strictly monitored (as we should be) and they asked to come back in matter of months. Otherwise we’ve been going years and years and the team has only gotten bigger no one ever goes. HR would be light on work.

OP posts:

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 23:29

No nothing in her contract about the course at all. It was all verbal. As I say we generally have good loyal staff and a culture of mutual respect and being a team. This sort of stuff hasn’t happened before, other than the thief and that was on a whole different level.

OP posts:

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9