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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU to dock this employees pay

202 replies

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 19:53

I have an employee who is employed 5 days per week but one of these days is spent at University studying for a professional qualification, the company also funds the course fees as this will be a benefit to us in the long term. This employee works in another office and therefore I don’t have direct daily contact. Today would normally be a university day but they are now on Easter holidays so I called to speak to her only to find she hadn’t come into work because Tuesdays are her uni day! Next week the same person has booked Wednesday, Thursday and Friday off as annual leave, no mention of Tuesday although she clearly is away for the entire week despite being paid to work Tuesdays. This is is more of a wwyd I suppose. I expect her in work if not pursuing the professional qualification, I expect extra study time to be completed in her own time as I personally feel being paid to study and having her course fees covered is perk enough so I don’t think calling the days ‘study days’ is good enough should that excuse be given. In any case I very much doubt she intends to take ‘study’ away on holiday despite it being a paid work day. It feels a bit CF

OP posts:

IHateUncleJamie · 15/04/2019 21:39

Leaving aside the confusion about days and when you wrote this then if it’s not clearly written in her contract that she must work on any Tuesday that uni is not in session then YWBVU to dock her pay. She’s not a mindreader.

If you are her line manager then I suggest you speak to her when she’s next in and ask her what her understanding of the situation is. Then clarify it and get HR to amend her contract.

Fiveredbricks · 15/04/2019 21:43

Then you need to update the t&cs of her contract OP and set the rules for the future. Not for the past. You also cannot dock her pay as you have not set any expectations regarding this. You sound like a bit of a shit boss tbh given you don't already know all this?? and a crank too - wanting to dock her pay

Also those given Uni days for work are normally still given the Uni holiday day off. You know - to do their Uni work!

TokenGinger · 15/04/2019 21:47

I'm really torn on this one. I'm on a course at the moment. When we first signed me up to it, it was an an apprenticeship and 20% of my work had to be off the job. However, that did not mean I couldn't go in to the office. Things such as shadowing my manager was considered off the job training.

However, the assignments are heavy and she could well be using the time today to type them. Or she could be bullshitting.

Mine was all online learning, but if I wasn't involved in a webinar, I wouldn't have dreamt of not turning up to work.

You need to set expectations with her.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 21:51

I think this another this is another instance of me thinking with my heart not my head. Times are tough, we need everyone pulling their weight as much as possible. We don’t need her to have the qualification, we said yes to be supportive, now we pay for her to advance herself, and then she lies to team members making out she is at uni when she isn’t. I feel let down, if that makes me a shit boss then I guess I need to get tougher.

OP posts:

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 21:55

She isn’t an apprentice, she won’t earn more for holding the qualification although it will make her more desirable to other companies....hmmm I’m feeling more of a mug by the minute

OP posts:

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:01

We don’t have HR, randoms on the internet give a good cross section of how other do things.
To be clear she was with us 5 per week and paid for those, she hasn’t had any reduction in her pay since we said she could do her course on one of those days, she knows this.

OP posts:

C8H10N4O2 · 15/04/2019 22:03

epic fail on the anonymity attempt

Yes.

If this is genuine then its really simple - either her contract was changed or it wasn't.
If it wasn't in her contract and made clear both ways then rather than paint her as some grasping slacker I suggest you point your ire at the organisation who failed to set up a proper agreement and discuss how it would work.

Rather like the poster who regularly crops up complaining about colleagues off sick you are targeting the wrong person. It is quite common for day release at this level to assume vacation periods are study days and the employee may have made the same assumption.

You talk about "your" employee - are you actually the employer disguising facts for anonymity? If not then they are your (junior) colleague and again your issues are with the company.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/04/2019 22:05

randoms on the internet give a good cross section of how other do things.

Crikey if that is your operating model I'm amazed you are not bankrupt or being sued by employees.

titchy · 15/04/2019 22:15

randoms on the internet give a good cross section of how other do things.

Christ! Hire an employment solicitor, phone ACAS, but don't try to do things which employees can sue you for based on ransoms off the internet.

Can you imagine the tribunal - 'So on what basis are you refusing to pay Sally?' 'Well this anonymous person on a website said it would be fine and she deserved it....'

Boom45 · 15/04/2019 22:16

When we've had people on uni release the rules have been VERY clear. And that wasn't necessarily that they had to be in the office on a holiday, it depended on the course. Some were course work heavy and lecture light so they had 52 week per year 4 day week to ensure they could get their work done. Others they were in when they had holiday.
I don't think you can dock pay now, as it's April I don't suppose this is the first holiday she's had from study but i think you need to get it written down what your expectations are now at least.

cstaff · 15/04/2019 22:17

If she is getting paid for a 5 day week and you very generously let her use one of those days to go to college and still be paid in full then the least she can do is come into work when not in college. CF.

Even if you don't take holidays for the days already taken make it clear that this will be done from now on.

Haffiana · 15/04/2019 22:17

No, what makes you a shit boss is that you are still blaming your employee for your failings. Both your professional failings as an employer and your personal failings.

You don't need to get tougher or whatever sorry-for-yourself conclusion you are trolling here, but you do need to get some simple clarity about your legal position and your financial position. WTAF do you mean by you have paid her to advance herself? What were you actually thinking?

Remember. It is your company and you are working for yourself. The people you employ are working for their wages. Not for 'you' and not for 'your' company. If you cannot make that distinction between the personal and the professional then this will always be a huge problem for your business.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:21

Before this I worked for a number of other businesses, none had HR departments. I think you’ll find many small to medium businesses struggle with stuff like this because they lack the funds to employ people to put in place operating models. Similar questions often come up on business Facebook groups, many people do just muddle through until they get big enough to be able to have staff who are experts in employment law. Lots of people I know get their accountants to draw up contracts for employees. An HR dept isn’t a luxury many business owners can afford, some people like us are on DIY and learn as you go. No the contract didn’t change she is still meant to be at work 5 days and is paid accordingly. Up until recently I thought she had been coming into work when there was no college, she has been telling the other people in the office she was at college. No one thought to question it. Maybe I need more employees who do like to moan and dig into what others are doing or for her line manager to be more suspicious, he also thought she was genuinely attending her course.

OP posts:

Flockingflamingo · 15/04/2019 22:27

Please tell me you have an agreement where she has to pay you back if she leaves within x years or doesn't finish the course?

C8H10N4O2 · 15/04/2019 22:28

An HR dept isn’t a luxury many business owners can afford, some people like us are on DIY and learn as you go

No its not learn as you go for you - its suffer as you go for your employees. There are many free resources from the government and trade bodies to give advice to small businesses. Please drop the pretence that the choice is between expensive lawyers or randoms on the internet.

Cocobeanstalk · 15/04/2019 22:29

Op you just said ‘ I thought she had been coming into work when there was no college, she has been telling the other people in the office she was at college.‘ so she was phoning up on Tuesdays and telling people she was at college ? Or you mean, YOU and your staff just presumed she was at college.
I wouldn’t come in on my study day.

myhamsteratefreddiestarr · 15/04/2019 22:30

If she’s paid for 5 days work then she should be in the office on non uni days. Her contract should have been amended to reflect this and you could have also stated that if she left within a certain period that she had to repay half the training costs. A lot of firms do that in the field I’m in.

Ring ACAS for advice ongoing.

Shelbybear · 15/04/2019 22:30

She's taking the piss. I went one day a week to uni and my work paid for the course and still paid me full time wage. Of course I went to work when uni was on holiday. I didn't even think it was something to question.

I'd tell her she can either take that day off her holidays or have it unpaid.

Another point, set up a training contract for her and set out what is expected. I had one and it didn't mention being in work when not at uni as that is just so obvious! It said I cld have one study day per exam and one day off for each exam. Also I had to pay the course fees back if I left, 100% within a year of gaining qualification and 50% within 2 yrs. Cover your back with this!

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:31

What was I actually thinking? - that if you look after people and help them out then they will reward you with loyalty and hard work, it was my attempt at promoting a better workplace.....which is probably why I need HR people to advise on this stuff.

OP posts:

NuclearReactor · 15/04/2019 22:31

I wouldn't dock the pay this time if it's the first time, that would be unfair . It was a miscommunication on both parts. Mention to them if uni is off in future you would like them to be in work.

negomi90 · 15/04/2019 22:32

How do you know she's not at college in the holidays? I've spent many a uni holiday in the library working. Or at home working on the online libraries - which counts as being at college.

Original poster

Fruitsaladjelly · 15/04/2019 22:32

Flocking flamingo- nope, no I don’t, and yes I know that makes me an idiot

OP posts:

Haffiana · 15/04/2019 22:33

No the contract didn’t change she is still meant to be at work 5 days and is paid accordingly. Up until recently I thought she had been coming into work when there was no college, she has been telling the other people in the office she was at college. No one thought to question it

You are still blaming her, aren't you? You are the one who didn't amend her contract - and who drew it up for you in the first place btw? - and you are the one who didn't make it clear to her that she was expected in. You are also the one who doesn't know where her staff are, and who hasn't supported her 'line manager' (haha) in what they are to expect from that employee.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/04/2019 22:34

it was my attempt at promoting a better workplace

I thought you said the agreement hadn't been made by you but the company?

Sorry OP but if you are the employer you have a responsibility to do this properly for the sake of all your employees. There are ample free resources (not least from colleges) to advise on this particular area on the amount of expected study time, the commonly assumed balances between support time and their own time. Stop trying to play the pity card and blame the employee for your/your companies mistakes.

Haffiana · 15/04/2019 22:34

This is what you wrote in your OP:

the company also funds the course fees as this will be a benefit to us in the long term.

Still blaming everyone else?

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