To believe my 5 year old, not his teacher?

[Jamhandprints]

My 5 year old has ASD with challenging behaviour, usually triggered by routine change.
So today at pick up time the teacher called me over to say he had got his best friend in a head lock for no reason (typical of his behaviour) Then, whilst in time out he has pinned down another child and put a bead up his nose.
I was horrified about this and nearly burst into tears.
I collected my son from the deputy head and asked him, on the way home, to tell me what had happened.
He said he hurt his best friend and put a bead up X's nose.
I asked him to tell me how he had done it and he said:
"I...I don't remember doing it. Miss Y said I did but I just I definitely don't think I did."
I asked a few times in different ways and got the same response, including tears. "You don't have to say tell the truth mummy because I definitely am".
So I phoned the teacher and she said nobody had actually seen it happen but X had said it was my son. She will investigate more tomorrow.
Thinking about it, my son has terrible fine motor skills, so to pin someone down and put a bead up their nose would require a lot of skill.
So i just feel terrible because all the school mums already hate my son (understandably) and I was going to contact the mum and apologise but I think he probably is telling the truth.
He is slow to process speech and respond so probably didn't know what was going on when he was sent to the deputy.
Does it matter?

I remember being caned as a 7 year old for biting another child. It was a horrific bite with blood pouring down her arm.
No one believed that I hadn't done it even though I was the most placid of children and I got hit at home for it as well (1970's).
About a week later she admitted that she had done it herself.
No one apologised.

I would be inclined yo believe your boy OP.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

They DO NOT (DO NOT!!) hate your son understandably. If they don't invite him to parties etc whilst inviting all the others they're nasty. Obviously it's unlikely they know about your son's ASD as school can't tell them and if he's not being invited you can't tell them but he is doing what he can in a mainstream setting (presumably). Please never think they understandably hate him, they may not realise his behaviour stems from his disorder but if they hate him, dislike him or exclude him having never taken the opportunity to find out from you his issues they're not very nice people.

Further investigation is needed. Your DS in time out (sitting on a chair away from others?) just happened to have a bead on him to stick in another child's nose, whilst holding them down with no-one seeing? Is that likely?

However I would like to add that I work with kids with SEN incl ASD and some do lie. Indeed my own DC with ASD has occasionally lied!

I think I would believe my son. It sounds like you’ve got a gut feeling that this isn’t right. Also no teacher should be saying that he must have done it because x child accused him of it. Also you don’t know what the child who makes this accusation is like. They could well be making it up. Why should this child be believed over your child? I’d be asking his teacher to act more responsibly in relation to how this kind of thing is handled in future.

Both of my DDs, at age 4, have blamed the 'go to' child for something at nursery for doing something on a day when he wasn't at nursery. Different 'go to' child each time as my DDs are now 4 and 8.

My 8 year old has always been impeccably behaved at school and nursery and mature for her age, so would be likely to be believed. I'm actually glad to have has the experience of them being mistaken/lying at nursery as it has prevented me from believing that my children are infallible.

I agree that there's every chance your DD didn't do it. I think moving school (as suggested by a previous poster) might be an over reaction and not in his best interest.

OrchidInTheSun Thu 11-Apr-19 19:51:14
Bead up a nose sounds a very unlikely thing for another child to do. Seems lmost likely that the child put a bead up their own nose

THIS. I have come across many children who have done this to themselves, never one who's done it to somebody else.

And if a 5yo can lie, then that doesn't just go for the OPs 5yo; it goes equally for the other child.

I've been through similar with my 10 year old son. He has ADHD. It is massively frustrating.

He's been with the same class of children throughout school and has often been used as the scapegoat. They know they can blame him and the teachers will believe them. We had one teacher tell us that if a reliable child says our son has done something they have to believe them.... or if several children say he's done something, they believe them as the majority. He's 'owned up' to things in the past that he hasn't done because a teacher has told him he'd get less of a punishment that way... If he doesn't 'own up' he'll also be punished for lying. He's stood in front of the class and apologised for something he knew nothing about simply because the teacher pushed him to say sorry, and because the whole class were being kept in at playtime until he did so.

Recently we were able to prove that he had been punished for something he didn't do- another child made it up, told a few other children, they all reported him to the head saying they'd all witnessed it. When we informed the head that it had all been a lie his reaction was to tell us he was 'shocked'. He refused to speak to any of the children involved as a few weeks had passed and he couldn't remember who had reported it to him anyway. (We named the child that started the rumour, this child often makes things up to get DS in to trouble, calls him names etc but simply gets away with it somehow.)

The whole thing has made me question how many times he has been punished for things he hadn't done! I feel awful because I haven't done enough to stand up for him, I had no idea how bad things were. He's started to self harm through frustration as 'nobody listens to him and nobody believes him.'

My advice is to believe your son. Get this sorted now before it gets worse and don't stand for any more of this sort of crap.

Sounds quite possible that the child did it to themselves and blamed him.

I agree with previous posters re using your son as a 'scapegoat'. My 9 year old has ASD traits (awaiting diagnosis) and has been picked up as being the scapegoat within school and gets blamed often.

I'd believe your son, until proven otherwise. If he was in 'time out' what were other children doing near him? I work in a school and our 'time out' is when the child is removed and sat away from anyone else, therefore if it is true what your child has been accused of, why was the other child near enough to antagonise him further?

You are not minimising the headlock, you sound like someone who has a good understanding of his behaviour. It sounds unlikely to me that he did the bead, given his fine motor control.

With the parents, we had a difficult situation in my DC's class. One boy whose behaviour was extremely challenging (ripping up other kids' work, hitting, fighting, biting, shouting when overwhelmed, damaging property).

Three years after being too scared to sit next to him, DC and this boy had become good friends and the boy, whilst still struggling in some ways, was far better integrated into the class. His mother had fought tooth and nail to stay in communication with the other parents. She took the impact of his behaviour on the other kids seriously. She got him to apologise where necessary. She organised short playdates outside school, which were a far less challenging environment for her son and which enabled the other kids and parents to see him in a different light. Usually one playdate was enough for DC and parents to depersonalise the school behaviour.

The mum was persistent in getting to know people and it took time. It must have been very difficult for her. This boy is still sometimes scapegoated by teachers. But the kids and parents know him now and he is liked and his behaviour better understood. The scapegoating doesn't come from the kids any more.

In short, please call nosebead mum whether or not your child did it. Express concern, use it as an opportunity to make contact. Say that you take his behaviour seriously and the school is investigating. You can drop in about his motor skills but play the long game.

First of all, the overwhelming majority of children will tell a 'lie' but not necessarily realise they are doing it. And the more they are questioned about an incident, the more they will keep up their version of events.
In this instance, as a teacher I would have asked each child what had happened once. (And separately). I would check if anyone saw this happen. If there was no certain proof of who could have done the deed, I would then speak to both children about how putting beads up noses is very silly. I would tell both parents what was factually correct rather than blame one or the other child.
I'd then keep a 'beady' eye on both children for a while!
OP, let the school do their investigations, but don't talk about it to the teacher in front of your child. Then let it go. Whether he did it or not, he most likely feels bad either because he hurt someone or because he's been told off.

I am a Reception teacher and like other PP I have had situations where an innocent person has been blamed for things they didn't do. I would not be surprised if your son didn't do it and was being blamed just because young children often put the blame the person who they often see getting into trouble.

I am also the mother of a child with difficult behaviours. We're waiting for an assessment at the moment. I'm lucky though, in that the school are really supportive. I do know there are some mums who hate my son (although funnily enough, the child who is apparently "afraid to come to school" because of my son loves playing with him at pick up when it's his dad there rather than his mum. But whatever. It was worse earlier in the year, I guess.) Anyway. DS definitely sometimes lies, because he doesn't remember or wishes he hadn't done it, but I don't think he'd be capable of putting a bead up another kids nose either. It just requires quite a lot of dexterity. If they said he'd grabbed a child by the throat (which he has done, and which I was obviously horrified and upset about) I'd believe that, but that's because he loses control when he's interrupted or his space is invaded or whatever. The bead thing... it's naughtiness, not meltdown surely? Also, two of his little friends recently put things up their noses in class. One got in trouble, so the other decided to keep quiet and TWO MONTHS and 3 courses of antibiotics later, they were waiting to see a specialist about this mysterious ongoing nose infection, when he finally confessed. So I can well believe that the other kid was trying to avoid getting in trouble without really realising that it's a much bigger deal this way round.

Soontobe60

Some of us here are discussing our experiences as parents of autistic children, some of whom do not lie, whilst we acknowledge that this is not true of all autistic children your post looks an awful lot like you are dismissing our experience and knowledge of autism, by doing that you are contributing to long held misunderstandings about ASD, for example - ‘it’s learned behaviour’, or, ‘they are just fussy eaters, they will eat what’s in front of them if they don’t have a choice’, etc.

Dealing with children with ASD often means different parenting (and teaching) strategies need to come into play.

Side track for those who say ASD children can't lie - that's a myth. SOME can't, some can, some don't understand the concept and presume if they've lied it has now become truth. I have taught in an SEN school and been lied to many times. I've seen students do things and then lie about it and then don't understand why I don't believe them. The 'i don't remember doing it' was regularly used as a defence. Even when I say I saw them do it. And they will stick to that regardless of evidence- even cctv. To them it's now truth. Some ASD girls, who seem to be better as masking, often lie to get out of trouble, telling different lies to different people about the same incident.

Not saying that's what's happened here, as all ASD kids are different. It's not the teacher who has lied though, but the other child may have. More supervision is obviously needed! I can't see a 5year old pinning down another child and sticking a bead up their nose as happening quickly, or quietly!. How this was allowed to happen, by OP's son or another child, needs to be questioned and investigated.

@HumpHumpWhale TWO MONTHS and 3 courses of antibiotics later

My god! That child has some determination! I'm not sure if I should be horrified or impressed .

@Jamhandprints, you sound just like my best friend. We met because her son hit my son in nursery, aged 2. When I met her, the first thing she said was "I'm sorry, I'll pay for any damage" before she even knew what had happened.

I've loved her ever since. Her son is very, very challenging. The boys are now 13 and still friends. She has been the most amazing mum and I've learned a lot from her. Like I say, she sounds like you. Stay strong. Be in his corner at all times.

I've recently been with her to an assessment by an Educational Psychologist regarding her son. (There's a lot more going on with him than ASD, so don't think this is your future.) He really does feel like the whole world is against him, because he has been scapegoated his whole life. He doesn't trust ANYONE, apart from his mum. He trusts us a little (more than his dad), but only his mum. She is his rock.

My heart goes out to you.

I think you’re concentrating on the wrong thing here. Whether or not he did that particular act, there are things he is doing to other children that shouldn’t be happening. And this is leading to him being isolated from his peers and stopping him making friends.

The school has a responsibility to all the children in the class and should be supporting your son way more than they are. For this incident to happen and nobody has seen it, is a real worry. You can’t put a young child who has been acting out (whether with SN or not) on a time out and not supervise them.

Instead of focusing on who is lying, challenge the school on supporting your son more effectively. It will be much harder for them to argue with you on that than it will for them to take a “he said/she said” stance.

Nobody should “understandably” hate a child with SN. In DDs class there is a boy with ASD who’s behaviours can be challenging, and another who I don’t think has a diagnosis, but when he joined the class this year (his third school at aged 8) he told everyone he “had anger issues” and spent his first few weeks doing some pretty major stuff. But, the school, and her class are really supportive, really kind, know the trigger points and what to do to help avoid them in group settings and stuff. The boys have strong friendships with their peers, and I don’t think they ever lash out at classmates any more. It is a really poor situation if you think you have to accept that kids hate him because of ASD.

Please believe your son. My poor ASD DC was bullied into admitting to doing something he hadn’t actually done by the deputy head when he was 7.

It was only months later when he was chatting to my DGM that he mentioned casually about the incident and he said he did it but he didn’t really but Miss B said he had to say it was him or he couldn’t go out to play! Nearly a decade on and it still angers me beyond belief.

Miss B if you are on here I think you are a nasty b*tch!

arabella
I teach children with ASD, Ave done for many years. Some do not lie ever, others lie almost constantly. All ASD children lie at different places on the spectrum and as such all need different strategies to help them make sense of the world.
Nowhere in my post do I say ASD is learned behaviour or a choice a school in choosing not to eat. Please don't make assumptions about things that are not there.
I have a wealth of experience with ASD, a parent with a child with an ASD diagnosis has a great deal of expertise about their own child. It's important for teachers and parents to work closely together if the child is to reach their potential.

This kind of reminds me of the time my nephew claimed that he got bit in the arm by another classmate. He had the actual bite mark on his arm. School was going to take disciplinary action, until his mom asked to see the bite mark. She saw it and said no way her son did that. The bite mark showed a full set teeth. Her son had his his 3 top teeth missing. So they realized her son didn't do it.

After some gentle prodding. My nephew finally admitted that he bit himself.

Hang on. He has been accused of something that no one saw happen, simply on the word of a kid with a bead up his nose???

If I were his teacher I would be thinking well, it's his word against his. I can't say what happened but I will keep them apart and keep a close eye.

She can't decide what happened on one child's word!

I think you’re focusing on the wrong issue here. The school are failing all of the children if this is happening. They have a child who is known to behave aggressively towards his peers, the situation where he is being accused of certain events that the teaching staff didn’t see it not acceptable, he needs to be being monitored and supported. The suggested events should not be possible and that is their failing.

Zombie thread

This was THREE years ago…..

My son had a friend in Primary who was known as the "naughty boy". If nobody was sure who had done something he often got the blame and to be fair it probably was him 50% of the time but all too often (according to DS) this boy was just in the vicinity and assumed to be the culprit. He was actually a lovely boy who's parents couldnt advocate for him and he seemed to just accept that he was permanently in trouble even if he hadnt done anything