To wonder if a 3 year old should be punished for bad behaviour?

[Iflippinghateplaydoh]

I have 2 ds, ds1 is 3 and ds2 is 1.

Both have always been lovely easy children. Loving, thoughtful, good eaters and sleepers etc.

However the past 3 weeks or so ds1 has changed.

Everything is a battle. He refuses to eat any meal, he just won't even come to the table. So we ignore him completely and eat as a family without him. At the end when we bring pudding out (yoghurt and fruit or a biscuit etc) he will throw an almighty tantrum so we get his dinner back from the kitchen and put it on the table. He will the eat it.

Bath time has always been something he has loved. He asks for a bath constantly. Not now. It's torture. Kicking and screaming to get him in, wash him, then refuses to get out.

Being mean to his baby brother. Purposely pushing him or taking things away from him that he's never ever done before. Hiding his dummy from us all and not saying where. Putting blankets over him knowing he is stuck.

Saying things to us such as he doesn't like us or that he was glad I hurt myself when I bashed my arm etc. He has always been so caring it's actually awful to hear him say these things.

He is also starting to refuse to walk. He hasn't used his pushchair since last summer! He doesn't need it. But he will just scream and throw himself on the floor.

When we tell him off for any of these things he just laughs, to the point where he can't stop. Then gets a cushion to hide his face as he knows he shouldn't be laughing.

It's like he just does not care.

I genuinely cannot see what has gone wrong. My mum came to visit today and was gobsmacked at how different he seemed. She told me as she was leaving that she feels that although I've always said I'm against the naughty step / naughty corner etc she thinks that this approach is no longer working.

In the past whenever he's had a bad day I've always responded by ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the baby , which always worked and meant he then went out of his way to please again. I feel this phase may be over and I'm terrified now as I've suddenly realised - I really don't know what I'm doing

Please help!

A 3yo is old enough to understand consequences. Don't get into battles over stuff like dinner as sounds like you've found sth that works there, but for hurting his brother I'd be getting down on his level, telling him it's unacceptable and asking him to apologise. If he chooses not to, then you step it up a gear. It's fine not to like strong discipline techniques but I really feel children feel more secure with rules and consequences in place

Ah I see that he doesn’t have a buggy. Ok then - if you don’t walk, we can’t go to the shops, so we have no food except (insert thing he doesn’t like) for lunch. And then you wait whilst holding a firm glare. Hold out long enough and they always back down.

Seeing lots of criticism for Ignoring unwanted behaviour and noticing the positive behaviour in someone else. It is a strategy used often in nursery.
E.g. "I love how carefully you are putting those away and looking after our things childX and childY" (while childZ Is trashing the adjacent area). It can't work great - the negative behaviour is often for attention and if they see that actually it's the opposite that is getting the attention, they learn that getting into trouble isn't the only way to get noticed.

But- it does depend on the behaviour in question. Violence and being unkind I wouldn't ignore!

Does DC1 go to nursery? If so I'd read their behaviour policy and ask them about the vocabulary they use to try and make things consistent for him, regarding expectations and consequences.

E.g. "I love how carefully you are putting those away and looking after our things childX and childY" (while childZ Is trashing the adjacent area). It can't work great - the negative behaviour is often for attention and if they see that actually it's the opposite that is getting the attention, they learn that getting into trouble isn't the only way to get noticed.

But again, that's for two children the same age and with the same expectations. The baby can't do most of what the toddler is (and you wouldn't consider it naughty if they did, because he's a baby) so it's a nonsense comparison and the toddler is old enough to know that and see it as unfair. It's also a bit less emotionally fraught in nursery because it isn't mummy and so the child is less likely to have reactions to perceived preferences and rejections. They might get jealous of their favourite nursery worker paying attention to another child but it's not the same as 'mummy likes the baby more than me'.

To be honest, to me that just sounds like normal behaviour for a 3 year old. Even down to suddenly not wanting to walk.
I have 3 grown up children and 3 grandchildren and have experience working in early years and I have always found 3 year olds much harder than 2 year olds. He is growing up, wanting to be more independent but still also dependent on you, he is trying to asset himself and will have lots of emotions he cant understand. Also at the same time his little brother is becoming more interesting, developing his own personality, and probably being very cute. All of which will be hard for your older son.
I wouldn't take his bedtime story away as punishment. I don't think you should punish as such at all. He will just become more frustrated and won't understand the link.
He probably won't understand why he is being difficult himself.

This phase will pass though. Meanwhile I would give him loads of praise for good behaviour especially when he is being cooperative or nice to his brother. Try and ignore the bad behaviour. Keep calm, and as upbeat as you can. After he has had a bad episode talk to him about it. See if he can explain how he felt and try to explain to him, or get him to explain to you why what he did wasn't a good thing ro do. Help him find another way showing his frustration if you can.
Good luck

It's a little known fact that children go through lots of stages as they grow, starting with toddler tantrums, going through to the 'I know it all' eights, the tween hormone ragers and hopefully ending with the 'it's so unfair' teen angst-ers!
Have you spoken with your Health Visitor? They are the ones who should be running parent groups in your area and providing you with practical help and advice around managing your little DC.
You sound like a wonderful Mum, just remember - one day, you'll look back on your little ones escapades and feel proud that you got through them (and be able to tell embarrassing stories to their friends/partners!)

You are right newaccount and reading back I over edited before posting as I had meant to say that it would be different with sibling jealousy thrown in!
But at the same time praising positive behaviour - e.g. "I really like how nicely you are eating your dinner" is very different to "oh your such a good baby, mummy loves you so much let's take no notice of your mean big brother". I'd not dismiss it all together any more than I'd say it's the best idea in the world without knowing exactly how it's done.

at that age punishment needs to be immediately after the act not later during the day. Also I wouldn't involve the baby when you talk about your DS1 behaviour. It has nothing to do with your DS2 and pits the two DS against one another.

Just a bit of solidarity from me, OP. I have twin three year old boys and a three month old baby. Fortunately, they’re not too bothered about the baby, but that’s probably because they’re too busy going after each other. The hitting, fighting, snatching and arguing is ridiculous. One BIT the other on the cheek! That has never happened before and I thought we’d got past the biting age. Anyway, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in feeling defeated by a threenager.

It's funny because I used to come on here and advise reading 'how to listen so your kids will talk' and 'siblings without rivalry'.

My first 2 kids went through all the terrible 2's and 3's. I did all the techniques from the books, and mostly they worked really well. So perhaps I smugly thought that was my parenting.

Well, DC3 came along, and it turns out, I'm shite. He is on another level. Nothing works. I've tried everything.

Now, I've never been a judgey pants, but I am WAY more understanding now. I don't congratulate myself anymore on my 'good' parenting. Threenager is a good term for it.

Fenella
I don't send DC to bed as a punishment but to their bedroom as a safe place to calm down away from siblings making them feel worse. It works well for me and both my eldest DC have no trouble sleeping at night.

But sending a preschooler to their room isn’t great either - if you are going to give a punishment or sanction it needs to be immediate, and related to the “crime” - “you won’t get out of the bath? That’s a shame. I’ve run the water out.” “You don’t want your dinner? Ok. But you’re going to be hungry.” Sending a tiny child to their room doesn’t help them to learn from what it was they did because they won’t directly relate the two. If you want to do any kind of time out then it’s generally considered better to have a naughty step or chair because that’s a specific place for them to wait and think about what they did. Sending them to their room sends a mixed message - it’s meant to be their safe, relaxing sleep space.

But can you talk to screaming child? I know in my experience it's easier to talk about behaviours when everyone is calm and nobody is screaming.

Recently stopped napping? More tired from nursery?
I think walking everywhere from 18m is unusual.
My nearly 4yo still needs the pushchair as we go on such long walk/bus etc. Too heavy to carry and no younger dc to have a buggy board. In contrast eldest was out at 3yo andbuggy board only till 3.5yo. We didnt walk as far though as had an under 1yo.

I think focusing on the baby is inadvertently causing jealousy in your older child. At 3 he needs set boundaries and rules and to know there are consequences for challenging behaviour but not ones that involve ignoring his negative behaviour and rewarding his sibling instead. Children need rewarded for good behaviour not for the other child’s bad behaviour. The naughty step does work even if you are opposed to it surely it’s better than creating sibling rivalry?

I've only had one child go through that phase so far so I'm hardly world's expert.. but what worked for us was a reward system for good behaviour. Each day he had five beads put into a cup and every time he behaved poorly enough he would lose a bead. At the end of the day he got as many sticker as he had beads in his cup to put on his behaviour chart. And then he could 'save up' stickers. 20 stickers for a sweetie, 50 stickers for a small (cheap) toy car, 100 stickers for a TY baby (the tiny ones) 300 stickers for a medium sized TY baby etc. The 'babies' would always be found in our post box after he had earned enough stars, they came to live with him because they heard he was such a well behaved little boy.

It worked really well for us! Much better than my previous tactic of losing my shit.

I hope it works for you too OP! (you may need to start with more than five beads.. )

There is no one right way to deal with difficult behaviour. What you need is a toolkit of strategies and choose which approach you will use dependant on the circumstances. I always favoured natural consequences eg if you throw/damage that toy then you don't get to play with it anymore. However, there were times I would send them to sit on the stairs. Amongst those outright defiance/rudeness would be one and deliberately physically hurting a sibling would be another.

At the age of 3, consequences still need to be immediate really or they find it hard to associate them with what they've done wrong. I wouldn't withhold things like bedtime stories (unless there is some extremely bad behaviour at bedtime) because that is an important time to spend together. Also holding it over him saying he needs to behave well all day to have it is probably overwhelming and setting an impossible goal. Then if he misbehaves first thing in the morning and loses it he has no reason to behave for the rest of the day. I'm not a fan of earning things back either. If you've given them a consequence then that consequence needs to stand so don't issue consequences you aren't prepared to follow through.

2 of my dgcs are only 9 months apart. I can still remember the look of horror on the elder cousin's face when they met up after a bit of a gap and the younger one was on his feet and walking. I think he thought the baby would stay a baby forever. He hadn't realised that he'd have a walking, talking rival for attention.

He'd pretty much ignored the baby up till then, but there was a definite edge to the relationship for some time afterwards until the little one was able to join in games and be a useful playmate. I'm still v careful not to compare one with the other, in any respect. -Especially to their mothers!-

2 of my dgcs are only 9 months apart. I can still remember the look of horror on the elder cousin's face when they met up after a bit of a gap and the younger one was on his feet and walking. I think he thought the baby would stay a baby forever. He hadn't realised that he'd have a walking, talking rival for attention.

This made me smile because there's also 9 months between DS and his cousin, and the look of horror on DN's face the first time DS crawled over to him and grabbed a toy - as opposed to lying there passively while DN chose what toys he wanted and we gave the others to DS - was palpable!

3 year olds can seem quite mature compared to a helpless baby, when in fact they are tiny tots. I agree with @incredibleSadToo -love bombing is s better idea. Also, use distraction, you are much cleverer than him, also you said he'd always had loads of attention, that must have diminished a bit since the baby came along. But we assume they'll grow to accept it.

We don't have a naughty chair but we do have time out, kind of the same thing but different. Both my 4.5 and 2.5 year old get time out, but I tend to use it as breathing space for everyone. I send them to time out on the stairs on our bed and then we everyone has calmed down I go and sit with them and talk to them about what has just happened.

Not perfect but seems to help in a lot of situations.

Sending them to their room sends a mixed message - it’s meant to be their safe, relaxing sleep space.

I agree in principle, but it can work for some children though - when my oldest is enraged, he needs to be on his own to calm down and his bedroom works as he can lie on his bed, read a book and genuinely change his mindset (in fact, now that he's older, he often comes down having completely forgotten that he was in a rage).

If you can talk to your older child in a calm moment and agree on ways to calm down when he's struggling to keep a cool head, then going to his room, sitting on a spot, having a pillow to hit etc, needn't be a punishment. We always talked about how it's ok to be cross, it's ok to feel frustrated, but it's not ok to hurt anyone or break things so you need other ways to calm down and if going to his room is one of them then that's an option you can offer him.

It might look like I'm 'sending' my son to his room sometimes (I will perhaps say 'maybe you should go up to your bedroom for a while' or similar) but it works because it was something he picked for himself.

It’s a phase OP. It happens most of them between 2.5 and 3.5 as they asser their independence. It’s bloody exhausting though!

Also, my eldest child didn’t show any jealously towards her sister until her sister started morphing from a baby into a toddler. It was like she suddenly realised that the baby was actually competition and the acting out and jealously became relentless. Then the baby started mimicking the whinging/jealousy too and it got to the point where I was losing my shit every day

I’d highly recommend Janet Lansbury in this context. Follow her on FB or listen to her podcasts. It sounds a bit hippy dippy/airy fairy when you first get into the “gentle parenting” approach but stick with it - the transformation in my DD was enormous, she really responded to it.

Deep breaths good luck!