To wonder if a 3 year old should be punished for bad behaviour?

[Iflippinghateplaydoh]

I have 2 ds, ds1 is 3 and ds2 is 1.

Both have always been lovely easy children. Loving, thoughtful, good eaters and sleepers etc.

However the past 3 weeks or so ds1 has changed.

Everything is a battle. He refuses to eat any meal, he just won't even come to the table. So we ignore him completely and eat as a family without him. At the end when we bring pudding out (yoghurt and fruit or a biscuit etc) he will throw an almighty tantrum so we get his dinner back from the kitchen and put it on the table. He will the eat it.

Bath time has always been something he has loved. He asks for a bath constantly. Not now. It's torture. Kicking and screaming to get him in, wash him, then refuses to get out.

Being mean to his baby brother. Purposely pushing him or taking things away from him that he's never ever done before. Hiding his dummy from us all and not saying where. Putting blankets over him knowing he is stuck.

Saying things to us such as he doesn't like us or that he was glad I hurt myself when I bashed my arm etc. He has always been so caring it's actually awful to hear him say these things.

He is also starting to refuse to walk. He hasn't used his pushchair since last summer! He doesn't need it. But he will just scream and throw himself on the floor.

When we tell him off for any of these things he just laughs, to the point where he can't stop. Then gets a cushion to hide his face as he knows he shouldn't be laughing.

It's like he just does not care.

I genuinely cannot see what has gone wrong. My mum came to visit today and was gobsmacked at how different he seemed. She told me as she was leaving that she feels that although I've always said I'm against the naughty step / naughty corner etc she thinks that this approach is no longer working.

In the past whenever he's had a bad day I've always responded by ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the baby , which always worked and meant he then went out of his way to please again. I feel this phase may be over and I'm terrified now as I've suddenly realised - I really don't know what I'm doing

Please help!

Everyone moaning about ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the baby, isn’t that a fairly recognised way to treat misbehaving kids? Ignore that the other child is a baby, one kid is being naughty and the other isn’t

But you can't ignore that one's a baby because (obviously!) they have completely different expectations. Baby isn't expected to walk, it isn't 'naughty' if the baby starts shouting or throws their drink or whatever, baby isn't expected to say please and thank you. Obviously this is all appropriate - it would be mad to treat a baby and a three year old the same - but from the three year old's point of view the baby is being preferred.

OP I feel for you as I am in the middle of this with my 2.5yo. I broke down and sobbed like a baby yesterday over the £10 t-shirt I was wearing, which the toddler had ruined my attaching me with a marker pen. In my defence it was the last straw of many straws

I've read all the books and I'm still going round in circles. I have found though that immediately taking away something she likes is more effective than time out/naughty step. I also try not to raise my voice but give her clear warnings and follow through every time with what the consequence is going to be. And when she kicks off about that I totally ignore her. I've been given some horrendous looks by leaving her to wail on the ground in the park (obviously I don't go further than a few steps away, but still) but I've grown a thick skin. I see it as I'm playing the long game, hoping I won't have the big battles later if I have them now!

We're also starting a reward chart which I've made with pictures as her speech isn't all there yet. It has a photo of her and her sister playing together as the target and a picture of a dinosaur toy as the goal. It's early days but she's starting to get it. If I do see her whack her sister, I take her to it.

I second putting to bed. It works for my nearly 3yo and 6yo. If they are behaving badly and do not respond to me talking I send them to bed a d tell them they can come and talk to me once they have calmed down. It really seems to work. At the moment!

His he in nursery. Could he be learning bad behaviour from other children around him.

Is he not happy with something going on in his life . And it could be why the behaviour
has changed.

It could just be a phase all children play up at some point.

I would try and distract the bad behaviour if I was you. So at the time he's doing something you don't like i.e not eating.

I would say well we were going to make cornflake cakes tomorrow but you don't want to eat today so maybe we could make the cakes when you feel like eating

Being mean to brother
I would say I thought you were a nice big brother. Most 3 year olds want to be helpful and telling him how well he looks after his brother will be real good praise and make him stop hopefully.

I think putting to bed a as a punishment is a terrible idea - we spend the first year or two battling to get them to sleep, why would you then want to teach them that bed is a punishment place and they should have negative associations with it?

I haven’t read all the comments so don’t know if this has been suggested but it’s worth looking at triple p parenting courses near you. The council run them where I live, it’s free and they do them at weekends/ provide a crèche certain days.
We were having issues with our 3 year old and it’s helped having some strategies to use.
The jist of it is to praise and reward good behaviour even doing things that are normal like coming to the table and sitting nicely. Give them loads of attention for it. If they do something naughty but minor (like being silly at the table) then ignore it. For other bad behaviour use a consequence relevant to the issue. Eg take a toy away for 5 minutes if they are throwing it. They also suggest doing time out in the same room like sitting quietly on a chair or in a different room. Same room doesn’t work for us as dd won’t calm down but she does if we put her in her room. We frame it like “go to your room to calm down”. We also use reward charts for things like getting ready in the morning.
It helps having a strategy so you feel more in control when it all kicks off.

Two things firstly punishment won't work they'll male him feel like he is naughty as a person. There do have to be consequences though especially for hurting his brother. It should be explained as a consequence (I. E. You hurt your brother so you have to leave the room so he's safe).

Secondly you need to understand why he's doing these things. He's communicating something in his three year old way. Is he getting enough attention? Is he anxious about something? Sounds a bit like he may feel usurped by the younger baby, does he get 1-1 time? Lots of positive praise when he's doing things right?

Two things firstly punishment won't work they'll male him feel like he is naughty as a person.

When I'm telling DS off I make sure to separate the child from the bad behaviour "we do not hit, hitting is not kind behaviour, on to the naughty step" and then when he's done his time, reiterate "do we hit other people? No, we do not. Hitting is not a nice thing to do. Say sorry to Mammy please. OK thank you, big hug" off he goes.

Agree with IncrediblySadTo and others, teach him to expect you to adore him , and fill his heart with love , by starting again, leading by love bombing him. He seems to have fallen into a habit of seeking attention and power by being naughty He will feel so much happier returning to feeling loved and having power to make choices about special breakfasts etc than gaining power by refusal to get things done and being attention seeking. It is hard being three and being the oldest in a busy family. You are doing great, make sure you take time out for you to feel loved and pampered too!!

Does your 3 yr old go to nursery?
He's definitely regressing, which is really common when a younger sibling is on the scene. Maybe indulge him a little, whilst praising the things he can do because he is big. Maybe some special big boy time without the sibling would help cement the fact that he will always be special to you in his mind.
I have 3 yr olds. Whilst I much favour the positive reinforcement style of parenting, they do have timeout occasionally. They're old enough to know not to hit or bite, so an infraction like this is non negotiable time out followed by apology. Sometimes they will have a time out if they continue to do something I've told them not to, but they get a warning first. They totally understand what is unacceptable behaviour and consequences of that.

I'm basically repeating what others have said but things that worked for us are:

• Lots of praise including for quite basic things.

• Ignore him if he's misbehaving at a fairly minor level. Just calmly remove yourself from playing with him then return when he's stopped.

• Similarly, if he tantrums and refuses to walk, I'd just say right, we'll just wait here until you're ready to walk.

• Where you do need to take action, try to make the consequences natural and immediate. Thrown a toy? Right, that toy is taken away. Hurt his brother? Then immediately take him away from his brother to somewhere where he can calm down. Taking away his bedtime story won't work as it's too long after the bad behaviour for him to associate the punishment with the crime.

• And if all else fails, make sure you always always follow through on threats you issue. He needs to know that you mean what you say. And if you're not prepared to follow through on something, don't use it as a threat.

Whilst ‘ignoring the bad behaviour and praising the good’ is a great technique, sometimes we need to be more direct. Involving/mentioning the baby in a punishment could cause resentment, is verging on being a little manipulative and could create sibling rivalry (which is being displayed in the behaviour you describe). After all, your eldest child is still adjusting to a new baby in the house and all the sharing etc. that involves.

I did use the ‘naughty step’, sent my children to their rooms and there were (and still are) lots of firm talks! I wouldn’t withdraw a bedtime story as punishment and I would not allow my child to disobey me when asked to sit at the table for a family dinner.

Maybe try to arrange some 1 to 1 attention for your eldest (I know that’s not always easy to arrange). I also found that giving my eldest child additional responsibility worked really well. Just simple things, helping me lay the table, eldest often fed his younger sibling and helped me change nappies etc..

No ‘delayed ‘ consequences. Not reading at bed time is too far removed and abstract and will just leave him feeling abandoned and bereft.

He needs as much affirmation, praise and cuddling for his achievements as the baby does for being a baby.

Being mean to the baby: sit on the step for 3 minutes. Firm calm ‘we do not hit other people / we do not take toys away from other people ‘.

Also: Threenagers.
It’s a thing.

Oh yes, and choices is definitely a good one. Three year olds want to feel in control so giving them a choice (where you don't mind which option they go for!) helps them get that feeling. E.g at dinnertime, ask if wants peas or carrots.

The point that leapt out for me is when you say you concentrate on the baby as a punishment for your ds, then you wonder why he is starting to do mean things to the baby. I suspect the two are linked!
So, no more using attention on the baby as a way of punishing ds.

I am not a fan of punishment per se, I believe that all behaviour is communication and you need to find the problem behind the behaviour. I subscribe to the 'Time in' approach, (as opposed to the time out), where you spend time with him, when he's misbehaving, not as a reward (which is how some people will jump on my comment), but in an effort to calm him when he's dealing with big feelings and to get to the real problem behind his behaviour, which you can then address.

3 year olds can be little arseholes at the best of times.

We tend to follow the same principles that nursery does for consistency. 'We don't do that to our friends', 'no thank-you', and practise swapping toys and taking turns etc.

Involving them in as much as possible and giving limited choice e.g. rice or pasta for lunch, what type of fruit would you like etc. illusion of control without overwhelming options - too many choices can be difficult too.

I'm a big believer in routine as far as possible for both the day and the week (with options for flexibility), and talking through the daily routine can help sometimes.

Agree with PPs - do not suddenly start praising the baby when DS1 has been naughty! He's just going to resent the unwitting baby who will then be the focus of unwelcome negative attention!

Instead I agree to giving him lots of choices - but with limited options - not open ended! Even down to when he's playing up telling him "you have a choice. You can choose to do this nicely like I have asked you to, or you can choose to carry on being naughty but if you opt for the second choice there will be (whatever consequences). It's up to you, have a think about it and let me know what you are going to choose - I hope you make a good choice!" I sometimes used to just say - we can do this the nice way or the horrible way- which do you want!?

Also get a buggy board - do not let him displace the baby from the buggy so you end up doing your back in. The choice then is "walk or buggy board - which is it?" If you want to use the baby you could say oh, the baby can't do all the things you can do I'm going to let you choose. He will have to stay in the buggy what do you want to do?

Good luck!

The other thing is, don't be in a hurry to radically change your parenting approach, just because he's going through a phase. Try to find ideas that resonate with your basic philosophy as those are the ideas you are likely to stick with. If you're against naughty steps and the like, then you are unlikely to implement them consistently or feel comfortable doing so. Look at your sil's approach, she's tried the punishments approach and its not worked for her, so i wouldn't be in a hurry to copy her ideas.

Just a bit of solidarity from me, Op. My wonderful, amazing, easy going DD hit 3 and turned into a stroppy selectively deaf fussy eating nightmare! 3.5 now and there are just flashes of light at the end of the tunnel. I adore every bit of her, but oh my goodness sometimes it’s like she finds every nerve I have and sets fire to it!!

I found that the sibling rivalry bw my 2 really kicked off when ds2 reached one, as he was more mobile, had his own opinions and "interfered" more with what ds1 wanted to do . So you might be seeing some of that.

I'd ignore what you can (the strategy w dinner sounds ideal), offer limited choice where you can (bath or shower, bubble bath or not), give all the positive attention you can when he's not being a horror and find a couple of quick consequences for the worst behaviour.

I found saying "yes" a lot helped at three "yes we can go to the park - this afternoon" rather than "no we don't have time this morning." fi. I also found that he got the giggles when told off - it was anxiety, not not caring/naughtiness. Wish I'd known that at the time.

My friend called her DD a "threenager" at this age! Quite apt I thought!

This challenging behaviour is actually normal - children do go through phases, even compliant, kind children! I think as long as we are consistent as parents - that is the important thing. Easier said than done, I know, but setting boundaries and reacting consistently to DC pushing the boundaries is what kids are looking for. They need to know where they stand, and testing us is their way of finding out!

I think putting to bed a as a punishment is a terrible idea - we spend the first year or two battling to get them to sleep, why would you then want to teach them that bed is a punishment place and they should have negative associations with it?

Yes, absolutely. Punishment should never involve food or being sent to bed. 😱 When dd (now 19) was little we had a system of counting to 3, followed by immediate consequences (standing in the hall for 3 minutes; I could see her but there was nothing of interest in the hall). Very quickly, all I had to say was “No thank you” at undesirable behaviour, followed by “Right, I will have to count to three”. Only once did I get to “three”

Loads of praise and cuddles when behaving nicely. Ask him to help you with baby (thank you darling, that was so helpful of you to find baby’s blanket/put the blanket on him so nicely” etc.

Don’t escalate noise and tantrums, the louder he gets, the quieter you get so he has trouble hearing you. That way you can truthfully say “We don’t shout at each other in this house, thank you”. Try to stay matter of fact at all times; he eats at the table with everyone else even if you calmly put him back 20 times. Bringing him pudding or reheating his dinner is rewarding him for having a tantrum.

Just remember - it’s a phase and it WILL pass with consistency.

I was never sent to my room as a punishment. My older sister had made the mistake of telling our mother that she liked it because it meant she could get away from the little brother that was annoying her in the first place. So everybody got punished by having to sit downstairs instead when we didn't get hit

A buggy board might help - small legs still get tired - but there will still be times when that won't work either and the child will hurl themselves to the floor anyway. It's what 3 year olds do. They normally get bored with it, especially when it's cold and wet down there, after a short time of it not getting much of a reaction. The only time I picked DD up and carried her was when it was dangerous for her to stay where she threw herself, such as on the middle of a zebra crossing or where I had to get her into school before I was late for work. I do remember the amusement on the Head's face when I walked past him one morning with a small, angry, kicking bundle shrieking under my arm, gave the small, angry bundle a kiss on the top of the head as I set the bundle gently down at the classroom door, said 'I love you, see you after school' and then trotted off towards the bus stop for work.

It might sound like a cliche, but not losing it/shouting at them works. When something is done to the baby, saying NO, picking the child up and putting them down again a few foot away stops the behaviour (might spark off a tantrum, but hey, they aren't pinching the baby anymore) and then repeating if they come back and try the same again.

A three year old might be very capable of speaking in long sentences and understanding complex concepts - but when it comes to dealing with emotions, jealousy, anger and unacceptable behaviour, they need easy, unambiguous statements, not explanations because they just aren't listening by then. They need to be instinctively stopping - whether anybody likes it or not, it's a form of training because you need them to freeze when they hear NO or WAIT in case it's something that's dangerous, like running towards the end of the road. Or pinching a baby. And they need to understand from the tone of your voice when they're being warned something is not good - a lower tone, something like 'Don't do that' - no making it sing-song or light and fluffy with pleases or can you not do that because it's not very nice. It's not a long string of words with meanings as much as the tone and short phrasing that registers.

When it comes to baths, it's a lot easier to get them in if the TV isn't on. You could, as he likes stories, have a bath story. No bath, no bath story. Or a song, whatever you want. He still has to wash/be washed, so the alternative could be a clean, warm, damp flannel, so he ends up choosing between a nice bath and story or a quick wash (which can be done very quickly and efficiently for him, even when cross). At the end of bathtime, it's time for the Special Cuddly Story, rather than time to get out.

And when it gets to 'Am I your big baby?' questions, I'd suggest a hug with a 'You're my special [child's name]' and [baby's name] is my special [baby's name]. It saves giving either a 'role', reinforces that they are loved and are individual little people who aren't expected to be 'the baby' or 'the big brother' when they might not want that job.

If you don't get it when they're two, you get it when they're three and, if not, it'll be five, eight or thirteen. It happens somewhere along the line - it's natural. And frustrating. And hard work. But it's natural.

You have a few complex behaviour issues here that cannot be answered in quick fix replies. Go and talk to your health visitor and see if there are any positive parenting courses in your area or whether she has had training in behaviour issues. If you feel there may be something amiss you might discuss whether you need a referral to a community paediatrician. If his behaviour has suddenly gone off there may be a reason, physical or emotional