To wonder why people still bet on the grand national

[Springtime336]

-2 horses have already died at ladies day

• approx 200-250 horses die every year in the uk in horse racing

Really sad

TheTit

As many of us have said on here, it’s possible to care about and be involved in both. Maybe the people you approach to support your chosen charities also don’t give a stuff about the cruelty associated with horse racing.

People talk about the Grand National once a year because it only takes place once a year. No one has any way of knowing what campaigning those people do for the rest of the year.

Up for Review broke his neck and died in that way at that time because of what humans did. There is no justification for exposing him to that risk just to make money from him.

When I watch the footage I’m glad I’m not the one trying to defend the practice as it must feel very uncomfortable watching it and wanting to justify carrying on exploiting more horses knowing more will die in a similar way.

But either way why is a human’s life worth more?

An animal’s life equivalent to that of a human...there we have it.

Putting down a dog or a cat or a horse, or killing a chicken or a salmon, should therefore be charged as murder.

Nothing more to be said.

@KissingInTheRain you yourself said that there’s no logical distinction.

And you know I’ve said I do actually value human lives more but I’m not sure that we should. There’s nothing about humans that make us better than animals.

Apparently it was a broken leg, according to The Express.

@kikisparks

It is industry standard. Look at how breeding sows are kept. How livestock is transported, how cramed in they keep chickens, knee high in their own crap.

I don't eat meat no. I eat fish and minimal eggs and dairy. I don't agree with modern farming, but Its very difficult to get a well balanced forfilling diet on a budget when you're vegan. I have tried a plant based diet and my hair fell out.

To be clear I don't disagree with using animals as commodities or eating animals. I bet on the national, I have a pet, I eat animal products. I disagree with unessasary cruelty. I don't find horse racing overly or unnecessarily cruel. I think modern farming is.

Do back to my original point. You can't complain about the national if you eat animal products.

Questioning things is how we learn and grow. Clinging to your own beliefs without challenging them is the problem with religion, and one of the many reasons that veganism is nothing like religion is that we questioned and challenged what we were doing, and realised the logical and empathetic thing to do was to change. It’s about being open minded.

So it’s easy to say- she’s mad because she suggested humans may not be more inherently valuable than non human animals. Dismiss everything she says.

At one time people said he’s mad because he says the Earth is round. Dismiss everything he says.

I’d rather have a respectful conversation and hear people’s views but if you prefer the route of ridicule and dismissal that’s fine.

But either way why is a human’s life worth more?

Yes.

Otherwise why don't we eat people

@Florescentadolescent I agree with you that’s its hypocritical to complain about the grand national if you eat animal products. I don’t eat animal products. But I think people will be hypocritical sometimes and it doesn’t necessarily detract from the point they are making.

“Its very difficult to get a well balanced forfilling diet on a budget when you're vegan. I have tried a plant based diet and my hair fell out.”

Do you want to be vegan? It’s possible to get everything you need on a budget, and I can direct you to a free resource which will help with this and also includes advice from qualified dieticians who could help you with the issue with your hair? I’m only wondering as you said yourself you’re contributing to an industry that hurts and absuses animals, which presumably you’d rather not do if the budget and health barriers could be resolved?

@Florescentadolescent well I rather think the point is that we shouldn’t eat either

We don’t eat dogs and cats, or indeed rats and seagulls. If the qualification of how much value something has is whether we eat it or not, then there are a lot of animals we don’t eat which by that standard would be as valuable as humans.

I should say do you want to be plant based, not vegan, since veganism is a rejection of animal exploitation and it sounds like you’re not there yet.

Btw it’s not unvegan to have a pet as long as they were adopted/ rescued.

@GoFiguire I heard neck but either way very sad

Tbh I would happily cut out all dairy and eggs. But my dh wouldn't allow it for the kids (which probably isn't a bad thing) and not while I'm breastfeeding. So I compromise with minimal animal products.

People are going to think this is werid but I would never stop eating fish and seafood as I don't think they are of the same level as mammals and poultry.

@Florescentadolescent surely it’s your choice not your DH’s what you eat? The kids if different as obviously both parents need to make the choice. If you personally prefer to wait until after you’re breastfeeding fair enough, but if you’d like to know about the resource with the dieticians etc let me know.

I’m afraid I can’t really understand that about the fish, they’re just as sentient and it’s going to be just as horrible for them when they’re killed.

I think the problem with perception of animal cruelty is where do you draw the line. We all draw our lines in different places and have different ideas of what is acceptable comodification of animals and what is not.

Personally I think animals are lower than humans. Its fine to use them and kill them as long as its done as humanly as possible and there is no needless cruelty.

Others think no animal should be used by humans. Not even for a pet unless that pet is rescued - even though the pet is loved and looked after.
What about buying a new build house that was built on a wooded field that homed lots of animals that were then displaced. What about feeding the rescue dog meat? If you say no animal should be used or hurt ever, then you may suddenly find yourself naked living in a hole in the woods.

I think if you think it's ok to have a pet horse but not a race horse, and the meat industry is fine but the racing industry isn't - you need to think about why and maybe reassess what are acceptable and unacceptable ways to treat animals.

Lions and elephants were commonly used in circuses for entertainment at one point. I'm sure people who spoke up against that were snubbed for a long time before enlightenment happened and people realised how wrong it was to force an animal to behave unnaturally and to the will of humans in the name of entertainment.

Reason 1. It's entertainment
Reason 2. I thought Tiger roll had a great chance to win.

The argument that it's dangerous is rather specious. The horses are well looked after. If you didn't have the racing, you would have to kill thousands of horses.

We have car accidents and people die, but we don't ban cars.

If you didn't have the racing, you would have to kill thousands of horses.

You know racehorses are bred to race?

If we didn’t have the racing we wouldn’t be breeding thousands of racehorses.

Gth how exactly is horse racing and the welfare of horses at the hands of humans for the entertainment of others comparable to humans using cars?

@Florescentadolescent I just go with the definition of veganism which is to avoid animal exploitation as far as possible and practicable. It’s entirely possible and practicable for me to not eat meat, eggs, dairy; to not bet on the grand national; to not go to sea world; to not buy a non rescue dog. None of those things are necessary. Living in some kind of home is necessary, living in the woods isn’t practicable. There’s no such thing as a cruelty free life but just because I accidentally step on an ant one day doesn’t mean I should shoot a dog.

I don’t actually agree people have different lines when it comes to animal cruelty, I think most people except psychopaths are against it. It’s just about educating people that things like the grand national/ eating meat necessarily involve cruelty.

I don't really need to be 'educated' I'm aware of what happens in racing, in the process of meat being produced to eat. I'm aware of a lot of other things as well. There's certain things I believe in and feel strongly over and will/won't do something because of that.
As I'm aware what happens in racing, and the equestrian world in general, I've made informed choices about what I know.
We could all stand to learn things, every one of us, but other people's opinions aren't 'education' they may be interesting and lead you to question your own opinion on something, but it's not education.

I don’t actually agree people have different lines when it comes to animal cruelty,

Of course they do. Because people on this thread disagree over whether horse racing is cruel or not.

I don't find fishing cruel but some do.

And can you really say anyone that works in an abattoir or hunts or likes seaworld is a psychopath? Some people just don't view animals in the same way.

@Florescentadolescent you need to read that in the context of the rest of the paragraph.