To wonder why people still bet on the grand national

[Springtime336]

-2 horses have already died at ladies day

• approx 200-250 horses die every year in the uk in horse racing

Really sad

It’s hard to deny that it’s very cruel though

It's bloody awful that horses die, but it's far less cruel than abattoirs.

The horses are well looked after, kept in peak health, & never have to be transported for hundreds of miles in cramped, desperate discomfort without access to water & food, to arrive at a place where they can smell blood, death, & hear the terror & panic of the friends going before them.

83 or 250 racehorses a year. Yes that's horrible.
But millions of sheep, cows, pigs, chickens etc every year.
And that's ok, because people 'need' to eat them? There's no more need to eat an animal than there is to sit on one's back while it jumps fences very quickly. Yet people are frothing at the mouth over one species, where relatively few come to harm. Bonkers.

But why is it OK to be cruel to animals and kill them for food but not when they are being used to create income.

Think how many people are employed by the racing industry. Those people need horses to earn money to buy food. People need jobs more than they need meat.

And the horses are treated alot better than slaughter animals.

And the racing doesn’t come as naturally as people think - we don’t see horses naturally racing like this across fields ..

Um, yeah - we do.
Not in a straight line against a clock because that is a human concept. But horses race, & horses will try to 'out-athlete' each other in the fields.

Kissing Do you think there is no real reason for any animal welfare societies/activists at all? Should they cease to exist altogether? Are there any that pass your approval?

RSA "But horses race, & horses will try to 'out-athlete' each other in the fields". The difference is, that's on their terms as they* wish to do without any outside influence.

I guess if you have to use an implement to get an animal to do something it doesn’t feel inclined to do, that’s a sign it’s not as natural as supporters would suggest.

No, it's a sign that my horse is very much larger than me, & that my leg or arm won't reach the part of his body that I wish to touch. TOUCH, not hit.

RSA "But horses race, & horses will try to 'out-athlete' each other in the fields". The difference is, that's on *their terms as they wish to do without any outside influence.

But the alternative is to have no racing, & therefore no need for thoroughbreds, Would you rather that this breed did not exist?

When humans go to work, it is on their employers' terms. Should humans all be released into the wild to live 'naturally'?
(Actually, I think should! But short of getting the 7 billion people to give up all industry & mod cons, it's not going to happen ...)

I can’t understand people not being affected by the cruelty Horses are sentient

I can’t understand people only being affected by it once a year.

This really, someone said it only enters the public consciousness once a year, that's true.
This is ONE horse, it's not right that one horse died racing today, but so, so many more will have done through neglect, ignorance, accident today....... Why are all the animal lovers not also up in arms about that? Is it selective? Being an animal lover? Only care if it's on the telly and high profile? If people can bet on it?

And I'm not a fan of racing or the national, but I do have a lifetime around horses.

Why are all the animal lovers not also up in arms about that?

How do you know we’re not?

It’s like when people ask why we’re not bothered about children suffering, or about climate change, or injustice. Many of us are, and many of us have been actively campaigning about these issues for decades.

But this thread is about the Grand National, an event that happens once a year. That’s why people comment on this specific issue once a year.

I think greyhound racing is much worse in in terms of animal welfare and cruelty. While it's a very risky sport (particularly national hunt) for the horse, I think most of them are treated very well, though yes, something of a commodity at times. It's the ones who don't do well you need to worry about. Tiger Roll will have a charmed life.

I used to bet on the national every year but have stopped now. I mean this year's race was an example, a horse fell at the first and was clearly in terrible distress, and ended up suffering "fatal injuries". It's brutal.

I hope it will gradually become less popular and phase out.

@imamearcat I think you missed the point.

@KissingInTheRain veganism is about exactly what you’re saying makes one “normal”- empathy and logic. Use them both together and every thing you listed is animal cruelty. I don’t expect you to listen to any further explanation though, as you have some strange desire to write veganism off as a religion, I guess because it suits you.

@floribunda18 that’s great you don’t bet any more- if more people think like you then seeing horse racing will disappear. Greyhound racing is also terrible, obviously.

@Brilliantidiot I’m up in arms all the time about all animal cruelty (including that which happens in the animal agriculture industry, places like seaworld, the fur industry, and also up in arms about many human issues too) but people don’t want to listen most of the time. It’s topical to talk about the grand national now because it’s on. People thinking about betting may read this thread now and change their mind.

@RSAcre humans are free, unlike race horses. We pick our jobs, where we live, who we live with, what we do in our free time, what we eat etc. We get to choose. There’s a name for forcing someone to work in a job they don’t choose to do...

Having a greyhound made me connect with horses more, as they have such similar facial expressions and body language at times. I can't help but see the cruelty as well more now. My hound loves to run and run but just for the fun of it, no pressure, and it would be lovely to see horses doing this too.

@Florescentadolescent “ why is it OK to be cruel to animals and kill them for food“

Clearly, it’s not. Jobs and income is not a justification or we would still have slavery- “what about the poor slave drivers job?” If something is inherently unethical, economic concerns can’t justify it,

I know that the majority of people only care once a year when it's beamed into their homes, because for the other 364 days when I'm trying to fundraise for the two equine charities I support, it's like pushing a rock uphill. It's very easy to pontificate on a forum and "mourn" the death of one horse (who will have had the best of care in life and who died almost instantly with minimal if any suffering - the kicking out of his back legs were involuntary spasms because he sustained a spinal fracture) but when I'm trying to sell raffle tickets or get people to sponsor me for an event on my FB page? 90% of them "have got no change" or "I only support human charities" or "I'll get back to you after payday" and then never do. Meanwhile the horses and ponies who end up at one of the charities for which I'm trying to fundraise are suffering REAL cruelty: left to starve, with their untrimmed hooves curled round like Turkish slippers or throbbing with the unbearable pain of laminitis, standing on mounds of their own dung, waiting for a haynet or a vet that never comes.

I can't get too incensed by the quick, near-painless death of one horse who lived in a warm stable, had the companionship of dozens of other horses around him and was kept in the peak of physical fitness. Was he treated like this because he had economic value to humans? Of course. I'm a pragmatist, I know most people in racing look after their horses so well because the horse has a job to do for them, and I think it's important that racing does more to guarantee the future of those horses who leave its ranks, as it's outside racing that most instances of cruelty occur.

Death is far from the worst thing that can happen to a horse. As someone said upthread, risk is not the same as cruelty. Racehorses are more at risk of dying during a race than the average horse is of dying while taking part in whatever activity its owner enjoys. But that death is swift, comparatively painless (because either instant or because of the effects of adrenaline) and a vet is with the horse literally within minutes. It's sad but it's not cruel.

If you genuinely care, please consider donating to one of these charities:
www.redwings.org.uk/donating

britishtrc.co.uk/donate/

www.princefluffykareem.co.uk/how-to-help

TheTit excellent post. PFK is such a good charity for horses that live the most appalling lives.

If it's true about Hallo Dandy's fate, then that upsets me far more than the quick end of the horse in the GN yesterday.

@kikisparks

You may be, and it's clear you've at least looked into it and are informed. I'm not a fan of racing full stop, however even I get tired of people saying and repeating things that aren't right, and they're not worried about the real issues in racing or indeed the equestrian world in general - because they don't know about them, because they see one small snapshot, hear a few misinformed people and away they go, for one day, once a year.
Yes, anyone should be sad about the death of a horse, I'm not trying to take away from that, and obviously the more people that say they don't like it, the more pressure there will be to improve things. However saying and repeating things that aren't true, isn't going to help the cause, because people will dismiss it.
I put an example in one of my earlier posts because I can't seem to explain myself very well over this.

But for example saying that the horses are beaten and abused to make them race. A beaten and abused horse will not do well in any sphere, they become stressed, and lose condition and weight when stressed, that's not going to produce a good athlete - which a racehorse needs to be. A beaten and abused horse won't do well anywhere. I've had one, it took me years to win his trust, and even then it was only me, and I never hurt him, the person before me did, and he was thin, in poor condition and scared of his own shadow. He'd been beaten (so I heard) to try and 'make' him behave himself. He kept bucking people off. He had an ill fitting first saddle, which caused pain - off course he bucked people off! However my point is it didn't work, because all that happened is he became scared, got a reputation for being dangerous and I saw him at the sales.
That's how horses react when they're beaten. As a matter of interest I googled Tiger Roll - he's in peak condition and bursting out of his skin - beaten horses don't look like that, and they don't win races.
Thinking the above doesn't make me like racing or the national.

@TheTitOfTheIceberg

Great post.
And wonderful you are so involved. I've had a couple of rescues however am not in a financial position to have a horse currently.
I was given an adoption from Redwings by a friend for Christmas and I got DD one too. Every little helps.

Hello Dandy was bought by Lord Onslow. Not sure if it’s the 7th or 8th Lord as his Wikipedia page doesn’t mention the horse, funnily enough.

Clearly, it’s not. Jobs and income is not a justification or we would still have slavery- “what about the poor slave drivers job?” If something is inherently unethical, economic concerns can’t justify it,

You can't compare it to slavery because a humans life is worth more than an animals. Otherwise police dogs and guidedogs would be considered slaves. Animals have always been used in industry. Sport is part of that. We need to make sure the animals involved are not needlessly abused or suffer more than they need too. But I don't think we should ban the use of animals in sport, work or food.

That horse getting hurt was an accident, a side affect. It wasn't intentional. It's not industry standard to hurt or abuse the horses as it is in the meat industry.

@Florescentadolescent the comparison is simply justifying something unethical because it keeps people in jobs. It doesn’t have to be slavery it can be anything unethical. But either way why is a human’s life worth more? FWIW I do consider police dogs and guide dogs as unethical as well.

“I don't think we should ban the use of animals in sport, work or food.”

I do. It’s wrong to commodify animals.

@Florescentadolescent and if you consider it is industry standard to hurt or abuse animals in the meat industry, presumably you’re on a plant based diet?