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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU as a remainer to think a 2nd ref would obliterate political trust?

110 replies

Lfoxbar · 27/03/2019 12:11

How can the government disobey the instruction of the electorate? Surely it would not only destroy trust but also set a nasty precedent. Aibu to ask how a 2nd referendum could ever be justified?

OP posts:
ClariceCliffe · 27/03/2019 16:50

I love Europe not the EU.

I don't think voters for the European Community / Common Market in the 70's could have envisaged the EU today. Maybe why lots of people from an older demographic voted to Leave.

MamaLovesMango · 27/03/2019 16:56

Wait... there is actually political trust to obliterate?!

Brexit or no Brexit, anybody that has an ounce of trust in that absolute shower is foolish.

InfiniteSheldon · 27/03/2019 16:57

The first vote was wether or not to join a trading union the second to be part of a political union they EU of 43 years ago and today are very different. This sort of Orwellian skullduggery sits awkwardly with the pretence of democracy you purport to support.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 27/03/2019 16:58

lifecraft I couldn't put your points better than you have done.

TheElementsSong · 27/03/2019 17:01

.

AIBU as a remainer to think a 2nd ref would obliterate political trust?
Lifeover · 27/03/2019 17:46

Quite frankly it’s been a complete shit show that’s highlighted how politicians only have one aim, that is to further their own careers. They can state for years what they “believe” then as soon as an opportunity arises they change their minds (Corbyn I’m especially looking at you).

I doubt I’ll ever vote again, since day one many in parliament have sought to thwart what the majority voted for, together with the bbc they have sought to undermine those who voted leave branding them stupid,racist bigots who based their vote on a number on the side of a bus. It’s been a remarkable marketing campaign on the part of Remain, holding themselves out to be the moral high ground, the liberals etc.

In truth a lot of people don’t understand the pros and cons of staying or leaving the EU. There are vast amounts of Remainers that don’t have a clue and just trot out the checklist;
Russia
Numbers on a bus
Leavers are liars, xenophobic, stupid
Ill conceived metaphors
The best deal is the deal we have now
Blah blah blah

Most of the remainers I know based their vote on the basis of a fundamental human instinct of where you’re not sure retain the status quo.

In reality, leave or remain the status quote will change, as a nation we have less and less control over what happens in the EU with each passing and increasingly frequent treaty. Areas where previously new treaties might have given us the power of veto now give us opt outs (ie the EU will head forward the UK will be left behind and put the club).

Where this ever closer union brings us is still open to conjecture but it is likely our common law/civil law system will be increasingly problematic in trying to mesh it with the civil law/adversarial systems operated in most of the EU.

The ECJ have increasingly used the fundamental freedoms toencroach on areas of supposed sovereignty.

The economics of the other countries are very different to ours. The zero tariff auto treaty negotiated with japan, favouring economies with their own auto brands (mainly France Germany and to some extent Italy) to export rather than economies japan has chosen to male inward investments in to manufacture vehicles to access the European market (as obviously the zero rate tariff would enable them to consolidate manufacturing back in japan thereby cutting costs).

In my view if we stayed in the EU we are likely to become increasingly margainalised. Obviously this is my view and realise others might have other views. If people can discuss their points coherently with an appreciation (although maybe not agreement) for alternative views then I totally respect that.

But what I mainly hear from remainers, obviously with exceptions is virtue signalling whilst simultaneously accusing leavers of some of the most socially damning traits. Never do they ever consider they are pawns of the ruling elite (the ones who hide better than owning Westminster)

Youseethethingis · 27/03/2019 19:09

@Lifeover
You are the voice of reason in the midst of the hysterical knee jerk insults being hurled in both directions. Thank you. Star

9toenails · 27/03/2019 19:31

InfiniteSheldon:
The first vote was whether or not to join a trading union the second to be part of a political union they EU of 43 years ago and today are very different.

Nope. European Communities (plural, note including, eg, Euratom (trading? huh? You having a laugh?) ...); next, Single European Act/Single Market (Thatcher, remember her?); next, Maastricht and Union referring at the time mainly to monetary union which UK did not join anyway.

1975-2016, different, certainly. Not enough difference to make a difference, though. And certainly not enough difference given what we voted for in 1975; my children, for instance, European to their core, not Little Englanders -- because we grownups had voted to be European and brought up our children to think of where they lived and who they shared their continent with.

Huh. Go learn some history, InfiniteSheldon, before you bandy talk of 'Orwellian skullduggery'. And think of lies, buses, and Dominic Cummings before you start talking of 'pretence of democracy'.

underneaththeash · 27/03/2019 19:39

There is no justification - we've had a referendum.
You can't keep having them until the result comes up the way you want.
It just needs to happen and we need to look after everything else that's currently being really neglected.

(This is from someone who thought actually having one was a really bad idea and voted remain (even though there are some good reasons to leave too.))

KennDodd · 27/03/2019 19:55

@Lfoxbar

Do you have any opinion on the illegalities around the referendum? I'm sure you know that had the referendum been binding, like a parliamentary election, it would have been declared void, do you think that actually this level of illegality is acceptable and that parliamentary elections should NOT be held to such high standards anymore and only help to the same level as the referendum?

ethelfleda · 27/03/2019 20:33

lifeover

Thank you. I am a remainer myself, but yours is the first well thought out argument for leave that I have read!

I like to think I understand what I was voting for, though.

Lifecraft · 27/03/2019 20:39

I don't think voters for the European Community / Common Market in the 70's could have envisaged the EU today.

Quite right. In exactly the same way that many who voted Leave in 2016 could not have envisaged the situation we face today.

Leaving with a poor deal or no deal when we were assured we would be offered a great deal. Leaving even though Turkey are not joining the EU when we were told that Turkey was on the cusp of joining the EU. Leaving to put £350m a week into the NHS when it is now admitted that they new at the time this was not going to be the case.

Pretty soon we will know the actual truth about the deal we are leaving with, or that we're leaving with no deal. When that is known, we put it to the public. Remain, or leave on these exact terms. Open, honest, and a tribute to democracy. We will then vote to leave or stay, and no one can complain about the outcome. .

BuckingFrolics · 27/03/2019 20:56

The fucking MPs seem to have had no problem giving themselves vote after vote to get the result they wanted. That seems to be May's way of working. Bastards. I hate the lot of them. Weak, self interested, lying incompetents. I'll never vote again

MaMaMaMySharona · 27/03/2019 21:00

There is no justification - we've had a referendum.
You can't keep having them until the result comes up the way you want.

I can’t believe people are still repeating this statement like this has anything to do with the actual situation.

Lifeover · 27/03/2019 21:12

Ethelfelda and youseethethingis thank you. I honestly believe that the inflamatory language and vitriol that is slung around has been far more damaging to British society than Leaving the EU ever could be.

I’m genuinely sorry that people cannot take a step back and consider the two sides of the argument which exist and rather than take the time to understand different view points, it doesn’t take much research to understand our fellow citizens, we don’t have to agree with each other -what sort of boring life would that be? What we do owe each other is respect of their well formulated views, the chance to pass on knowledge and listen to each other.

The last 3 years has made me sad that it has highlighted where society has gone, a lack of respect for differences, a predisposition of many to rely on sound bites and an inability to critically evaluate information put to us. The fact extremist tribalism still exists with a desire to try stamp down the other tribe at any cost is sad for us as individuals and society.

I’m disappointed in politicians of all sides that have failed the electorate, the people who put them in their roles to keep us informed of the facts, all we have heard is political posturing, it is their job to represent our views. There still seems a lot of confusion over what the withdrawal agreement is. There’s a lot of people who seem to think it sets out the agreed future relationship with the EU rather than just the rules which will exist whilst we negotiate our future relationship.

Most of all I’m sad that people show no respect, kindness or understanding of each other and think it’s ok to use quite disgusting tactics to push each other down.

Once this is done, I hope people reflect on the treatment they have given their neighbours, to bring back balance in themselves and society.

Lifecraft · 27/03/2019 21:17

There is no justification - we've had a referendum.
You can't keep having them until the result comes up the way you want.

It's not a case of getting the result you want. It's a case of what is now being delivered is not what was voted for. This is not what the Leave campaign told us we would get if we voted leave.

So as we're being given something totally different to what was on offer, we need to vote to see if we agree to it.

ivykaty44 · 27/03/2019 21:19

If you vote for something and at a later date get all the facts were lies and criminality envolved on both sides- how it that democratic?

Lifeover · 27/03/2019 21:39

You see though the facts haven’t changed since the referendum. all the reasons I had to vote leave in 2016 still very much exist. Both campaigns were quite frankly bloody awful, anyone could see they were many made up of opinions which could happen in the future, both sides predictions have fallen short in many respects, I think we are supposed to now be deep in recession, which despite the best efforts of parliament hasn’t happened.

We still have no idea what the long term relationship with the EU will be.

If we had another vote what new facts would we be voting on?

KennDodd · 27/03/2019 22:36

How would you feel about a public vote between a CU+SM Brexit and a no deal Brexit?

Lifeover · 27/03/2019 23:01

Kendodd. Part of the problem now though with any new vote is there has been 3 years of marketing by remainers so any vote would not take place on an equal basis and the inequality will inevitably lead to, in my opinion anyway, any vote now being prejudiced.

I’m interested to know though as most remainers seem to think that the majority of leave voters based their vote on wanting to end freedom of movement how you think the leave vote would change as any acceptable by the EU of a customs union is almost certainly likely to be predicated on the acceptance of the UK of the 4fundamentsl freedoms

Oakenbeach · 27/03/2019 23:52

I voted remain... but I accepted leave won so was happy to vote for a party in the GE who campaigned to implement it. Imperfect as it is, I wanted TM’s deal to pass so we can move on, and get on with developing our relationships with Europe and the rest of the world post-Brexit. I respected the vote.

However, if TMs vote fails again, given we don’t have any agreement in Parliament for any course of action, I’m not sure what we can do other than have a reset. We should delay Article 50 for two years, agree to hold a GE in three months,
And thereby giving a period for politics to re-group to form new alignments, or new parties even, that could take this forward.

Caztonette · 28/03/2019 02:30

I really think there has to be one. The 'Leave' vote was indeed a call to leave the EU, but without setting out a specific means of how it would be achieved or what our future relationship with the EU would be. Various different, conflicting models were suggested in the campaign, with desirable aspects of each presented whenever it suited.

In the commons today, 5 different models were put forward, and that's not including May's deal. The commons hasn't been able to arrive on a majority for any model, and May's deal is amongst the least popular.

A concrete proposal really ought to have been put forward the first time around. As things stand, some Brexits are too hard for some Leavers and others are too soft (to the point where some Leave voters describe some Leave models as a betrayal).

As for where we are now, it is stuck in the commons with little indication that the deadlock can be broken.

One way to actually move things forward is for MPs to decide which is the best model, then put that to a confirmatory referendum.

Alternatively, the 'Customs Union 2.0' option was the closest to a consensus today. If MPs could actually achieve that, it would do (a fairly soft Brexit which shouldn't hamper our economy too greatly and does actually get us out of the EU). Problem is, a lot of Leavers, both in and out of Parliament, would loathe that option).

Caztonette · 28/03/2019 02:32

Because 'Leave means Leave' apparently doesn't seem to include most of the options for actually leaving...

Caztonette · 28/03/2019 02:35

And screw it, I'll have 3 posts in a row.

Re. All Leavers being racist. I doubt that's true. However, the Leave campaign did deliberately play on people's fear of immigrants and a lot of the most vocal Leavers are openly racist. A lot of the non-racist Leave voters likely fear being so vocal about their vote, knowing that they'll be tarred with the same brush.

longwayoff · 28/03/2019 06:41

You'd prefer the current situation to continue?

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