AIBU as a remainer to think a 2nd ref would obliterate political trust?

[Lfoxbar]

How can the government disobey the instruction of the electorate? Surely it would not only destroy trust but also set a nasty precedent. Aibu to ask how a 2nd referendum could ever be justified?

How can the government disobey the instruction of the electorate?

The electorate does not instruct the government to do anything at all. The UK Parliament is a representative democracy - MPs (should) vote according to their duty to act in the best interests of the country as a whole. MPs are not delegates. An advisory Referendum does not constitute an instruction to government.

Surely it would not only destroy trust but also set a nasty precedent.

It was the Referendum itself that set a nasty precedent. It meant that MPs and Parliament abdicated their obligations and have spent the last 1,000+ days hiding behind 'the will of (some) of the people' instead of fulfilling their Parliamentary duty.

Aibu to ask how a 2nd referendum could ever be justified?

Here we are in agreement, but probably for different reasons. The UK has a long tradition of representative democracy. Resorting to a referendum breaks this tradition. It is also dangerous as representative democracy is the safety valve against the populace directly making decisions that harm the country or the citizens, or from being in thrall to fantasists, fanatics and foreign agitators.

YABU. That referendum did not in any way demonstrate democracy at work. It was corrupt and full of outright lies and scaremongering from the get go.

YANBU. OP - you are spot on. It would be the downfall of democracy and many would never vote again.
Of course it wouldn't be 'the downfall of democracy'. We've had almost three years to get a good deal and leave, and have signally failed to achieve this for the very obvious reason that all 'leave' options will adversely affect the country. It's time for the government to admit defeat. This should never have been put to the public in the first place, if only because of Northern Ireland and the GFA.

I actually think that the only way they will claw back ANY trust is to put it to the people. The only ones who still want to go are hardliner racists who are bullishly refusing to accept that their view of their utopia is not compatible with an economically successful first world nation

And welcome to Mumsnet Lfoxbar ("as a remainer...")

The only ones who still want to go are hardliner racists

Just how is that helpful, Bunnyfuller?

Deluding yourself that only racism was a motivation for leave voters just means you carry on making bad decisions.

I would have agreed with you before. In fact, I think I said as much here a few weeks ago.

I think there are huge problems in how it would be set out if it the options are no deal/ WA/ revoke and could be considered undemocratic by either or both sides and at the same time fail to make a useful intervention.

However, if the referendum works as effectively a veto by the population on the manner in which the government intends to proceed, then that might work.

But at this point, who the fuck knows.

And welcome to Mumsnet Lfoxbar ("as a remainer...")

They always are ("remainers"). Of course.

I think dressing it up as a People's Vote or a Final Say is wrong. They should just be blatant and say they want a second referendum because they don't like the result.

It's hypocritical, though, because I've seen people make comments alluding to the fact that Remain would win a PV/FS (personally, I don't think it would) and then in the same sentence say "and that would be the end of it". So in short, they are trying to overturn the result because they don't like it.

You don’t have one general election and then keep the government it elects for all time

Who said it was for all time? In 40 years time, if the opinion has shifted, then a party can campaign to rejoin. We don't have referendums every two years to see if we would like to Remain or Leave the EU. How would that even work? Or are you another that thinks if Remain wins a PV/FS that "would be the end of it"?

Deluding yourself that only racism was a motivation for leave voters just means you carry on making bad decisions.

Agreed. I really despair that some people are willing to write off the views of half the voters in that way. That patronising and judgemental attitude is part of the reason we are in this mess in the first place.

The terms of the referendum were ill thought through. If it had only been binding with a majority of 55-60% we wouldn’t be where we are now. One of the reasons remainers are so angry about this is because the result was so close. Another vote with a more convincing majority would be the end of it for me - whichever way it went. Oh and without all the lies and false promises, ideally.

"Is there any "political trust" left to be obliterated?"

You have summed it up in a nutshell, @yiskasha.

The problem is that those who campaigned for Brexit made promises to the electorate that they didn't have the authority to deliver. Basically, they promised people the moon on a stick - but sadly both the moon and the stick were under the control of 27 other people, who decided not to allow us to have either moon or stick, but offered us a candle and a couple of matches instead.

Brexiteers then said - rightly - that this was not what they were promised nor what they had voted for in the referendum, and Remainers pointed out that the candle and matches were not as good as our share of the moon on a stick had been as part of the Moon-Stick-Union - so neither Brexiteers nor Remainers were happy with the deal.

Whatever happens, a significant proportion of the population are going to be unhappy - Brexit will be too hard, or too soft, or No Deal will cause chaos, or Brexiteers will find that we still have to obey some of the EU rules and laws, in order to carry on trading with the EU - but we won't have any say on those rules any more - and they will feel they were sold a pup by the politicians who promised them the moon on a stick and couldn't deliver it - whilst some Remainers will feel that any Brexit is too much Brexit, and that we are worse off.

Everyone has their own idea of what Brexit should be - and even if the UK did decide what sort of Brexit we want, and what the details should be - there is no guarantee that the other 27 nations would agree to give us the Brexit we agreed on.

Whoever was Prime Minister during this process was going to have an impossible task. I cannot understand why any Tory politician would willingly volunteer for such a thankless and difficult job. The cynic in me would say I'd sit back, watch it all play out, let whoever was PM ruin their political career over it, let the dust settle, before I even thought about running for high office.

I think it there were a second referendum and the result was again very close - they'd be issues especially if it was remain just winning - with leave slightly less so.

A convincing majority either way would be great - but I can see why the MP are hesitant about it - but if they can't find a way forward it could happen.

'Hopefully there is still time for common sense to win over bigotry and xenophobia. Surely this should be the aim of any democracy?'

Agree with a PP that this 'statement of fact' is rude, offensive, patronising and false. You really actually, despite living in the UK (presumably), think that 17 million people or even half of that are bigoted and xenophobic? WTF.

I voted Leave, I am educated, tolerant, left wing, intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate so don't be so fucking sweeping in your statements.

In my opinion, there is now probably reason to have another vote, seeing as we now know the problems and options. But just to revoke Article 50? Why?? We had a vote. There was no caveat on the vote in terms of what we were voting for or the split of the vote.

I agree with crumpet on page 1.

Of course many leavers will lose trust if we don’t actually leave. However many remainers have already lost trust because the govt has been going on about the “will of the people” and “having 65 millions people behind me” when May went to Europe. It’s been like we don’t exist.

The truth is that democracy was fucked the second that referendum was called. It was never going to end well. (Even it remain had won, leave would have clamoured for another the second the EU did anything seen as greater integration).

At present I cannot believe the people that are running our country.

It’s an absolute shambles.

I voted leave, not because I’m against immigration or a bigot, but because I don’t think that over 28 countries you can have one set of laws that fits all. Europe (not the EU) is a culturally diverse beast, and I think that asking all members to bend to the will of one overseeing body is not right.

I may not have worded that very well and for that I apologise

It’s been a divisive couple of years, friends have withdrawn from each other because of the differing opinions, one of my friends daughters asked me if I was a racist, which was hideous.

I’m heartily sock of the whole thing. But f there were another vote, I’d still leave.

Our PM has made a bollocks of it, and Juncker and Tusk et al aren’t much better.

Yanbu another vote will destroy any last faith in our system of government and will lead to a huge rise in extremism. Disenfranchising huge swathes of a population has never ended well.

The trust has gone now, most people have no faith in democracy or the politicians, I certainly don't.

See I worry if we leave - especially with no deal - food price inflation and job losses and a downward economy will lead to a rise in civil unrest and a rise in political extremism.

I want to remain but if we leave I want to do so in way that means impact is mitigated as much as possible - I worry the current politcial impass means a NO deal crash out.

Some people like to say that public opinion has now changed but there's no real evidence for that. The protest in London had 1 million people. It's a lot, sure, but it represents a tiny fraction of our population. The petition to revoke article 50 attracted a lot of interest but again, at less than 6 million signatures it's still only managed to drum up a fraction of the support that the leave vote got in 2016, and that's even taking into account that people who weren't allowed to vote were allowed to sign the petition. So if public opinion has changed so much then surely there should be at least about 35 million signatures on that petition, right?

The referendum attracted the highest voting turn out in British history and leave won. I would have liked remain to win but the fact is that they didn't. The people have spoken. I think those saying public opinion has changed are living inside an echo chamber and clutching at straws.

The way it’s been handled by both government and parliament has made DH and I seriously discuss a move to NZ. We have always said if JC got into power we would emigrate anyway. Regardless of whether you’re a remainer or a leaver the behaviour of the MPs has made us both loose all faith in the democratic process in this country. Personally I believe that parliament should be asking the electorate to vote on either Mays deal or leave with no deal.

The first did that by putting such a simple and straighforward stay or go question to such a complicated situation with a simple majority outcome. As if it were a vote on where to go out to on a Friday night.

There have always been different ways to leave, 4 different countries that were asked (2 yes 2 no) all of whom have different stakes at play.

Coupled with the fact that NO ONE actually knows what leaving would mean because the circumstances that we had before we entered are completely different to the world we are in now.

And there is not one single high profile politician whose decision making processes on this have not all been about power and personal gain

If done properly as a remainer I would not mind leaving. I am remainer mostly because the current situation suits me well enough and I am risk averse and like the status quo. If done properly so that would not change or indeed I could benefit I am not adverse to this.

No one has shown how that would happen. The softer options keep the status quo but totally remove us from any decision making power, in effect we have benched ourselves. The harder options are going to have huge implications. As for no deal anyone in the know knows exactly would that would cause and I would hope even the more self serving politician is not stupid enough for that.

The problem is due to the sheer complexity of the EU very few people have the requisite knowledge required to truly answer the yes or no question which is why it never should have been asked like that in the first place. And that is the problem it is too complex it has gotten too overreaching and stretched itself.

At least they were not stupid enough to make it binding oh hold on they did revoke Article 50 without a clear plan....

The people have spoken.

Spoken what though - as I said given that very few (and I include myself) cant truly articulate what the EU is or what leaving will mean how on earth can they have spoken.

What the majority have said is that they dont like the current situation we find ourselves in - but how much of that is due to the EU and how much of that due to the incompetence of our own Government/Parliament (hint quite a lot) means that very few problems will be solved and even more created.

Forgive my lack of googling, frankly I’m as sick as you all are on this, but I thought parliament DID meet and DID agree that the result of the referendum would be honoured ‘by the house’ ?
Did a law or motion then get passed to force that to happen?

I wonder how people have suddenly managed to find such enthusiasm for the EU. I was just looking up the results for the 2014 elections and our turnout was 35.6%, of which 26.77% voted for UKIP.

I voted leave for similar reasons to Grumpasaurous

I have nothing against immigration (actually think legal immigration should be made easier). I just don't want to be part of a political union with Europe.