To think this could be the end of brexit as mps take control of the process from the PM

[quittinaeete]

Theresa may now really cant go for a hard brexit, anyone else think it's brexit cancelled?

Side B blocks the vote through shenanigans

WTF why is this being blamed on remainder ‘shenanigans’. Leavers had their chance to Brexit twice already, the ERG voted down the withdrawal agreement that would allow them to do this.

Why are you not incandescent with rage at Mogg and his shitty lot for blocking Brexit?

JustAnotherPoster00
That Nigel Farage

You don't like the man, I don't like the man, the difference that I don't underestimate him. It is attitudes like yours that have allowed him to gain so much support.

If you need other examples of politicians that have been underestimated and mocked, lets try boris johnson, or micheal gove. Yet look at how far they have got.

It may well be worth rethinking your attitude towards these people as according to some remain voters they have managed to manipulate 17.4 million people.

Side A only won the referendum through shenanigans. By "shenanigans" I mean fraud and illegality. And that's before you get into the misinformation and downright lies they told.

I love the word shenanigans, I worked for a man who used that word. My thoughts are:

We have elections every 5 years, on the first past the post system. So the sitting MP doesn't necessarily represent the views of their constituents.

The Referendum was a simple in or out vote, so the electorate didn't have the details of a deal. However the effects of the deal will have a lifetime affect on the UK.

37% of the electorate voted for leave, this doesn't necessarily represent the views of the majority.

Those people calling for a peoples vote have a valid argument. Revoking Article 50 and replacing it at a later date with a more informed Referendum might be a more equitable solution.

I've just been reading quite an alarming article about AI and the extent to which it's causing divisions and threatening democracy.

What we saw in 2016 (Trump, Brexit) was amateur stuff, compared to the capability now. And it's progressing at an exponential rate.

It's not odd that the number for the march for Brexit is so at odds with the numbers marching for 'put it to the people'.

Scary times, to be honest.

@Langrish
I don’t even care what party they are right now, I just want them to be capable.
I agree. I could vote for any party - just give me a decent honest leader that can run this country with integrity.
Too much? It does seem so.

People will be pissed off if it is cancelled without some kind of consultation into why people voted leave in the first ref. if another is held.

I voted leave because I felt the struggles of my area and people like me had been ignored and the EU exploited by successive UK governments and the media as scapegoat or distraction for or from what they had done. If we are out they will not be able to do this anymore. Additionally, I hope it will stop the 'I'm alright Jack' attitudes of many in the south and those who voted remain. Exhibited a lot on MN Their hair is turning white at the merest threat of what we have had for decades, but without the handwrining and support to be fair.

The main issue of cancelling Brexit without consultation and the promise of change (similar to the Barnett Formula) for some of the areas that Leave, is that people will feel that they and their vote matter less than other members of their society. They will also feel like they have been 'talked down to, by people who believe they know more than they do.' (This attitude is very prevalent this site and sadly, people are proud of being patronising and condescending ) They will even more disenfranchised they already do. This thread highlights how easily that could happen, the subtext of a lot of posts is:

Not only are Leavers too stupid to understand what they were voting for, or to have their votes honoured, they're too lazy to organise a protest when we ignore tthem! (tinkly pattronising laugh)

This sums up the stereotypes that many poorer people face everyday and that brought us here. "You're poor because you are stupid and lazy."

FWIW I will happily vote again in a 2nd ref. I will have one vote as before. However, if it is unilaterially cancelled, witthout consultation, I will be furious.

Just here: sadly, , just here, the North, and the North East in particular, will suffer proportionately far greater negative impact from Brexit than anywhere else, according to the Government’s own analysis and that of almost every independent expert (and I still believe in experts, I do, I do, I do ) . And without the European grants and subsidies it has benefitted from greatly in the past, which the Government has made no commitment whatsoever to replacing, to soften the blow.

Langrish, did you not see where I said, it's the way the EU has been used by the gov. the NE may have been helped a tonne, but not where I am. Nor did I say the patronising attittudes are exclusive to the south. We have nothing to be replaced, we had nothing to with. Before you dare ask: I have campaigned and voted for differentt local government representattion since I was 18 YO, I have formed petitions and written letters, started groups you name it. NOTHING has worked. You are showing the presumption, but lack of insight that has caused the current situation Langrish.

Justhere:
“Dare ask?” Okay.
I’m not presuming anything at all, just reading expert analysis. I certainly haven’t caused this mess, thanks: that was caused by Cameron, Farage, then Johnson, Gove Rees Mogg et al, starting this ridiculous process then campaigning with no idea whatsoever how to negotiate a sensible withdrawal that wouldn’t screw every single one of us, whatever our viewpoint, whilst lying through their teeth. .
With your permission, I’ll dare to say that we were born in, lived in then moved from one of the poorest regions of the UK to another, each of which have benefitted enormously from EU subsidies, particularly farming and fishing, both of which are well and truly screwed now. I obviously don’t know where you personally live, but relatives in Sunderland tell me their area was awash with EU funded schemes.
I’m sorry you’re so angry but leaving the EU isn’t going to improve your life.

My area is not in the NE. I still live here. It has recieved less than £500,000 in EU funding (significantly less). I said 'dare ask', because the usual response on here is 'what have you done?' so I tthought I'd preempt you. Being in the EU hasn't done much for my life directly tbh. One area in which I am lucky is that I have never needed medical treatment requiring drugs.

I wouldn’t be that rude, Justhere..Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I voted to remain, I would again with bells on. I dont even really hold it against leave voters any more. I was angry initially but I thought a lot about their reasons, could understand some of them (though some were and remain nonsensical, like voting to leave the EU because they were pissed off with the UK Govt. just completely illogical, makes no sense). I don’t believe theyre all stupid, nasty evil racists, it’s a lot more complicated than that. People were shamelessly manipulated though, by a small group of wealthy, powerful people with their own entirely self-serving agendas and ambitions.

I’m just incredibly sad now. No one wins in this bloody awful situation.

(though some were and remain nonsensical, like voting to leave the EU because they were pissed off with the UK Govt. just completely illogical, makes no sense).

Nice backhanded dig. My logic was clear, the gov. will not have the EU to scapegoat anymore, people will not have the EU to maintain status quo anymore, including those who have benefitted. All of our eyes will be opened to what the government has done. We will all begin to see the importance of holding them to account, through this change will come. It will not be quick, it will not be easy, but I believe passionately, that it will be worth it.

Justheretogiveaviewfrommyworld the government not having the EU scapegoat will not make a bit of difference to their attitude to the poor. They'll just use something else: Previous governments; Local councils; the poor themselves. Please understand that Westminster does not care about you or I, and leaving the EU will not fix that.

The "I'm alright Jacks" in the South and then London bubble may take a bit of a hit during Brexit, but the poor of the rest of the UK will take a bigger one. Langrish was only partially correct in her post, TM has committed £1.6billion to the poorest areas in England over the next 7 years. However that falls well short of the £6billion that the EU committed to the poorest areas of England over 6 years from 2014-2020.

I grew up knowing that Westminster don't give a fuck about the likes of me and you and while I love your optimism, you would be better facing up to this fact too. Leaving the EU will only make our lives worse by taking away one of the institutions that actually do help.

Justthere I wanted to pick up on your point that the EU hasn't done anything for your part of the NE. You are oversimplifying it by looking at only the cash that goes into an area. The EU has done things for your area. Maybe not specifically for your area but certainly for the segment of the population that lives in your area. Health and safety at work, workers' rights, legal rights, quality standards on food, clothing, electrical goods, etc etc. The lack of development or progress in parts of the UK is down to government planning and poor allocation of resources - things that the EU does not control in a sovereign state. Unless like Greece they are on a bailout programme.

The EU isn't the IMF or the World Bank. It wasn't designed to just give money to areas. It's about trade and rights. On many of those aspects it has delivered well. What I don't understand is in a country where people are fed up of the politicians why is everyone so keen to get rid of the one institution that actually can hold them accountable?

Sorry - just self correcting that you are not in the NE.

Also to say the EU does provide funding to areas that need it. But that's not the main body of their work nor is it the best parts of what they do in my opinion.

PBobs I love your posts, you seem so well informed and balanced in your views 😊

Not backhanded at all, completely up front and glaringly obvious. The motivation was flawed and the result is disastrous.

Voting to leave the EU because you’re pissed of with the UK Government is illogical. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. The UK government (of whatever hue, they’ve all played the EU blame game to suit their own purposes) suddenly cut off and exposed, with no EU dictators to blame and fictitious nonsense to hide behind, isn’t going to suddenly put it hands up, say OK, you’ve got us banged to rights, we were being disingenuous for 40 years and falsely blaming our bad policies and self serving agendas on the EU bogeyman. You’ve found us out now though so we’ll stop immediately and work ceaselessly for a fair society where everyone benefits equally as the nation prospers and we’ll be sure to maintain worker’s, women’s and minority rights and environmental protections, of course we will. Sorry but anyone who believed the cobblers they were peddled was shamelessly manipulated.
Voting in protest at the UK Government’s behaviour will result in everyone, and the poor disproportionately so, being made worse off than they were before.

Not backhanded in the least, quite obvious. Makes no sense at all.

PBobs:

What I don't understand is in a country where people are fed up of the politicians why is everyone so keen to get rid of the one institution that actually can hold them accountable?”

Exactly this! Should have read yours first and saved another load of hot air, much better put than I could

What I don't understand is in a country where people are fed up of the politicians why is everyone so keen to get rid of the one institution that actually can hold them accountable?
This.

It happened because Cameron campaigned for Remain and Remain was seen as the “establishment” side and so the knee jerk reaction was to vote against them.

And now I feel silly because it was a rhetorical question.

What I don't understand is in a country where people are fed up of the politicians why is everyone so keen to get rid of the one institution that actually can hold them accountable

This. One of my main reasons for voting remain was to protect the employment rights we have (which are still a lot less than in most Western European countries). Although someone said on MN a while ago how dare I have that attitude if people had voted for a UK government who would dismantle them? Well people have voted for a UK government to dismantle them. I used to say it would be the first thing that would happen on April 1st. Well of course the date has changed, but mark my words - the first thing that happens will be to reduce employment rights despite the government's recent consultation implying the contrary.

Cameron voted remain but he wasn't committed at all. Ken Clarke would have done a much better job of campaigning for remain.

Exactly. The amount of people I've heard who want to get The Queen to sort it out (Jacob Rees Mogg is just one I've heard advocating this) so just become an absolute monarchy for 5 years is ridiculous! They have no idea what democracy is. No wonder so few people vote.

Employment rights will be the first to go, it won't be any regulations to do with air quality or saftey or anything in manufacturing because we will still need to meet these standards in order to export to our main trading partners.

Read Britania Unchained where they describe the British worker as lazy and unproductive.

Anyone who voted leave effectively voted for the ultra neo liberal wet dreams of Raab et al.