To think this could be the end of brexit as mps take control of the process from the PM

[quittinaeete]

Theresa may now really cant go for a hard brexit, anyone else think it's brexit cancelled?

Sorry to answer your actual question peanut, other countries left and survived. The UK would survive as well, although the GFA complicates things. It would just be a bit crap.

"How am I a "fucking sociopath" exactly?"

Because you voted for benefit cuts, which have killed people, because it doesn't directly affect you so you don't give a shiney shit about other people's suffering.

If you or someone close to you ever has to go on benefits and is hurt by the cuts , will you have the ounce of self awareness needed to recognise that it's partly your fault? Or will you just feel sorry for yourself?

{So what happened to Greenland? Are they all dead? And did food run out?}

No because their population is small (50,000 or so?) and their trade deals pretty uncomplicated. Saying that, IIRC the trade deal they made over fishing, basically 1 'topic', took 3 years to negotiate. The UK will have around 700 trade areas to renegotiate, so it won't happen quickly.

Are they all dead? And did food run out?

Ive never seen someone who voted reman say these things

Peanut1983
You were asking about money. I can't add to what's already been said about the budget but thought you might be interested in another angle.
On my tax statement for last year there was a breakdown of where my income tax was spent. I don't earn a lot so my tax bill was about £1800 for the year. The biggest chunks went to: NHS, Education and Social Security, they had roughly £400 pounds each. EU contribution was £12. Not much, is it?
Nearly ten times as much as the EU contribution went on servicing the national debt!

Not enacting a flawed vote, based on outright lies, that won with a small majority does not fly in the face of democracy, it upholds it. This seems to be a favoured argument for so many, but honestly it is really nonsensical.

I'm sorry, you're the one being nonsensical. Not one Leave voter I know accepts the premise they were somehow brainwashed by Russian gold or by that bus; that they would have voted Remain but for all that. They say they voted Leave off their own bats, and now they want the result implemented, and no amount of "But the Leave campaign lied!" has convinced them they ought to have voted Remain.

As was already said up thread, democracy is not the same thing as majority rule.

Democracy may very well not be majority rule, but when you have a 52-48 vote, it doesn't mean implementing what the 48% voted for on the basis that most of the 48% are insufferable people who arrogantly think they're smarter than the 'plebs' who were supposedly conned into voting the other way.

So what happened to Greenland? Are they all dead? And did food run out?

They were very much alive and well when I was there. Massive social issues but that's nothing to do with the EU but to do with the geography and social isolation.

Even if Brexit doesn't happen this time, it will continue to be an important issue in future politics/elections. Both main parties will continue to be split. The electorate are split. The likes of UKIP and Farage will be more important than libdems again in future elections. The issue isn't going away any time soon. It has the potential to dominate politics for decades to come until it's finally sorted.

I'm a Tory voter. If we had an election tomorrow and Labour won I'd hate it, but I'd accept the removal vans would have to pull up in Downing Street, and I'd take the view that it was for my side to regroup and try to win the election after. I wouldn't take the view that Theresa May could squat in Number 10 and we Tories could pull some shenanigans so that we, the losers, could keep Corbyn, the winner, out just because we didn't like it.

At no point on this thread has it been acknowledged that we had a referendum, 17.4m - more people than have voted on one side in any election or referendum in British history - voted Leave, and those people have the right to see what they voted for implemented, not blocked by the losing side, and certainly not blocked by 340 or so MPs (most of whom stood on a manifesto in 2017 promising to implement the referendum result).

I voted Remain, because I thought (and think) leaving the EU is bad for Britain, but fuck me, most Remainers (as this thread shows) are such smug arrogant twats and it is loathsome to be on the same side as them.

So all people that vote Tory are sociopaths? Wow

Greenland is very different from the UK. It is reliant on one industry - fishing (90% of the economy) and it still took at least 3 years to unpick that -just one industry and one product to sell. Its citizens are still EU citizens as Greenland is part of the Danish Crown. However they still want to sell to the single market so still have to abide by its rules but without any say on them.
You can’t compare Greenland with its population of around 56,000 and one industry and product to the UK with its complex economy, services and products.

Whatever way you voted, I think it is pretty disgusting to threaten violence if you don't get your own way.

If you live in a democratic country, a vote is held on an issue, side A wins but side B blocks the result through shenanigans - what alternative is there?

kazzy this is what I fear. The only v way we will know one way or another is to have a no deal Brexit so we can find out once and for all how many trade deals we can actually do and how we fare on our own. The problem is that I live here, as do my children, so the risk is too high. If I could live in a tax haven and look on, I might be tempted to see how it all pans out.

I voted Remain, because I thought (and think) leaving the EU is bad for Britain, but fuck me, most Remainers (as this thread shows) are such smug arrogant twats and it is loathsome to be on the same side as them

So most of 16 million people are smug arrogant twats based on the generous handful of posters on this thread

I hate this side business

I voted once...didnt realise id be on a fucking side for the rest of my life

Only catching up to this thread this morning.

But I have seen so many people abuse the benefit system it makes it difficult to like the system and want to keep it in its current form.

Anecdote is not data. Neither is the bullshit spewed out by the media.

The government's own figures put benefit fraud as a tiny percent of the overall cost of benefits. Even their estimates of undetected fraud are tiny. I haven't time to dig it out now but I will later if I must.

IIRC the fraud figures were smaller than the figures of the benefits that go unclaimed by people who would be entitled to them.

And don't get me started on the TRUE benefactors of the benefits system... Private landlords and companies who don't pay proper wages.

For a "scientist" your lack of knowledge and basic awareness shocks me. Critical thinking is a huge part of any university degree so how someone who claims to be educated is so lacking in it is cause for concern.

Staunch remainer here! The worry is that there's loads of people like americandream who are absolutely FURIOUS about the concept of Brexit being cancelled - but without having any idea why. They're just really angry and they haven't followed the Brexit thread further than 'we had a vote'. They don't care what economists are saying or the huge violations made by Vote Leave or the minutiae of the negotiations, they just know we had a vote and now it's not going the way they thought, and they're all whipping each other up into a frenzy about it without really knowing why.

If we had a General Election, your party won, but the other party managed to keep you out of Number 10 and out of Government, and said "Look, we've been warning you how bad your side would be in Government, and those warnings are still true, and the economists still say your side would make a hash of it, so they've got to be kept out":

Would you say "Oh, OK" - or would you say "We've had a vote, my party won, we've got the right to form a Government" and be absolutely FURIOUS about it?

If you live in a democratic country, a vote is held on an issue, side A wins illegally in an advisory referendum but side B blocks the result through shenanigans - what alternative is there?

Fixed it for you.

I think we can all agree on two things

1. Everyone is very angry
2. The Leavers did not vote for this utter fiasco.

I voted to leave but now don't care. I lived out of here for 20 years and have been back for 4 years. Out of everywhere I have lived this is the worst place despite living in a very affluent area in the SE. There is too much crime, tax, stress and too little family time for my liking. I've lived places where I had a much less disposable income and a much better life.

The EU isn't actually the bad guy here. It is actually our own governments. They are the ones bleeding us dry financially and emotionally. I've lived in 2 other countries in the EU and you do not actually hear that much about the EU on the news or in day to day conversation, it is more national focus. You have to ask yourself why it is all consuming here. Even before Brexit, it dominated the news and conversation.

If there is another referendum I will vote to remain because I am planning on moving to Spain after my youngest goes to Uni. I'll sell my massively overpriced property that was paid for by long hours and stress in the SE and live a basic, yet much better life on some Costa.

I am so sick of this, the them and us. Why can't people come together to agree on a way forward like mature adults. The nastiness from both the remainers and some of the leavers is awful. We're leaving the EU we will survive we aren't going to sink and all die of the plague. Some people are just so nasty it doesn't make the leavers right because they won and it doesn't make the remainers right because the leavers were lied to so apparently it doesn't count. Get a grip!

I really hope there is a second referendum as I don't think the populace were in receipt of the full facts when they voted in 2016.

It was a lot of scaremongering, russian bots influenced social media campaigns, extreme rightwing and pensioners rather than the informed, educated, forward thinking and younger generation.

It is interesting how most other EU countries only adopt EU policy if it suits them so accept EU money for infrastructure and farming for example but also have an ultra right political stance (especially those from the former Eastern bloc) and so refuse to accept migrants and actually beat any up if they try and settle.

They all seem to pick and choose which EU policy to adopt whereas the UK is pretty much one of the only ones that is a stickler for the rules!

I think we should abide by the EU rules we like and ignore there rest like all the other EU nations and thereby keep everyone happy 😀

1 million people marching

Please check out FullFacts for a more accurate figure.Clue - it's nowhere near one million.

FullFacts is based on flawed methodology that takes a static shot of the crowd and does not account for regular refresh as people continue to join at different points. Both TfL Tube data from the most frequently used Tube stations by marchers on Saturday (an increase on a normal Saturday of somewhere in the region of 1.6m) and police officer eye witness accounts on the day itself substantiate the 1.5m figure. I was at the 700,000 strong (widely accepted figure) march in October and this one was definitely bigger.

The government's own figures put benefit fraud as a tiny percent of the overall cost of benefits. Even their estimates of undetected fraud are tiny. I haven't time to dig it out now but I will later if I must.

0.7%

The best thing that can come out of cancelling Brexit (well one of the best things) would be abolition of Fptp and its replacement with AV voting. With AV, hard right and authoritarian people will have a party to vote for that will have a realistic chance of getting seats in parliament. Then they will be inside the tent and instead of popping up on the radio all the time saying wtf he wants, people like Farage will be inside the tent (and their followers won’t get to distort the main political parties), and we will learn to govern in coalition.

Parliamentary reform is boring, but if the AVreferendum had passed, there is a good chance that none of this would have happened.

I didn't say that. I said you are a sociopath, because you openly admitted that you don't care about a policy which has lead to deaths because it doesn't personally affect you.