AIBU to cut off contact with my mother-in-law?

[BadgerBrush]

Okay, I apologise in advance, I think this might be a bit of long post, but there's a fair amount on complex history, and I don't want to drip feed. I'll try and break it all down into manageable bullet points.

• My wife and I met and became a couple when we were 16 (have been together now for 16 years, married for two).

• Her mother was not a fan of me for the first few years of our relationship. Neither my wife nor I really know why, other than she didn't like that we got so serious so young. She actually didn't speak to me for the first three years or so, and whenever I went to their house, she would lock herself away in her office and avoid me (which suited me fine back then, as I was quite a shy teenager).

• My wife always had a bit of a rocky relationship with her mother, as she (her mother) was very overbearing and tried to be controlling.

• When we eventually moved into our own place (aged 21), her mother began to soften up a little and started to accept me into the family. She was still a little reserved around me, but invited me to Christmas, birthday meals, and holidays etc.

• As the years passed, my wife's mother and I developed a better relationship, to the point that she asked whether I would like to join her in running her pre-school, and eventually take over the business, as she wanted to retire soon. I accepted the offer, as I was keen to run my own pre-school.

• For two years, we worked together in a tiny little office, and it was mostly good. We actually became very close, and I learnt so much about her - her personality, her history etc. I would say at one point I was even closer to her than my wife was (she had always been somewhat reserved with my wife as well, not really revealing too much about her childhood, and her inner feelings etc). But I guess when you work so closely with someone, you can't help open up to them.

• During this time, I also saw the original side to her personality - the extremely controlling and stubborn side to her that I knew as a teenager. She was rude and demanding to our staff and sometimes to our parents, and it was left to me to smooth things over. Occasionally when I did something she disagreed with, she wouldn't speak to me for days on end.

• She would often do this to my wife (and her two other children) as well - if they did something she didn't agree with, or disliked, she would just shut down and ignore them, sometimes for weeks on end. Until she would suddenly decide to snap out of it and act normal again.

• My wife and her siblings hated when she acted like this, and understandably so. It was horrible to be on the receiving end of a parent ignoring you. The most extreme case (which is still going on actually), was three years ago, when my sister-in-law got a tattoo. My mother mother-in-law absolutely hates tattoos, and has refused to speak to her daughter since she got one. Seriously, she hasn't spoken to her for three years now. My sister-in-law is at uni in Scotland and returns home for the holidays and things, but mother and daughter just ignore each other and go to separate rooms (it's a pretty large house, so it's very easy to avoid one another).

• Whenever my wife was on the receiving end of this behaviour, she would be very upset - constantly in tears, and try and do whatever she could to "get her mother to like her again". It upset me to see my wife being manipulated and emotionally abused like this.

• So, back to me and my mother-in-law working together... oh, sorry, I should also add that when I started working at the pre-school, my wife and I actually moved into my mother-in-laws house. I know, I know, it sounds like we were in each other's pockets the whole time, and was a recipe for disaster, but it wasn't like that. As I said above, the house is pretty large, with three floors, the top floor of which is basically its own apartment - it has its own kitchen, bathroom, living room etc. We moved in because we had just recently gotten engaged and my mother-in-law thought it was crazy that we were spending so much on rent where we were currently living.

• My wife's step-father agreed that we could live in the house to help save for our wedding, and eventually put down a deposit for our own place. We all agreed that we would pay bills and and some rent, but it was much less than what we were originally paying.

• So, back to the pre-school. After being there for two years, and having a few ups and downs, there was an "incident" that made me think it was a bad idea me being there. I felt it was straining too many relationships, and it would be healthier for everyone if I went to work somewhere else.

• I told my mother-in-law, and she took it relatively well, although she seemed a bit surprised and disappointed. I was sad to leave, and felt like I had failed at something, but also felt that it was the right choice in the long run.

• I quickly found another job, and my wife and I were starting to be in a position to maybe buy a little place of our own. The relationship between everyone seemed... cordial. Not overly close, but everyone was polite enough.

• Then, one day, my wife received an email from her mother (even though her mother was literally one floor below - she doesn't like talking face to face, and if there's any sort of conflict, she will only communicate via email), saying that she thinks we are taking the piss living there effectively rent free and that we should be paying full market price if we wanted to continue living there. She attached an invoice for that month's rent (which was the same as the rent in our previous flat), and also an invoice back-dating all the months that we had been there. Obviously, this ran into the thousands!

• I told my wife this is crazy, and we shouldn't pay it at all. That her mother can't suddenly charge us for 18 months' rent, especially when that hadn't been the agreement. It also would have meant that all the money we had saved to buy our own place would be gone, and we would be in the same situation as before.

• I said I didn't mind paying full rent from then on, if that's what they (mother-in-law and father-in-law) wanted - it's their house, and they can charge want they want if we wanted to live there, but I said it felt like she was just doing it out of spite to hurt us.

• We spoke to the step-father, who said he had no idea that his wife had sent the email, and of course he didn't want all that money, and didn't want to increase the rent (it was actually his house, in his name, and he owned the house outright with no mortgage). He said under no circumstance should we pay her any of the money, she's just being bitter.

• So, within a couple of months, we were able to find our own, and moved out fairly swiftly. My wife tried talking to her mother, but she just received another email saying that there's no way in hell they can have any sort of relationship until we pay her that money.

This was happened 18 months ago now, and neither my wife nor I have spoken to her mother since. We still see the step-father - we have birthday meals, and he's come to our new flat for Christmas etc, but we haven't seen her. Now, I know my mother-in-law is being completely unreasonable, and has some serious issues. But problem is this:

• My wife (naturally) still loves her mother, and desperately craves a good relationship with her. In the past, whenever something like this has happened, if my mother-in-law hasn't come around, my wife would normally go grovelling with an apology to smooth things over, which my mother-in-law would usually accept and things would be fine for a while. But then the same thing would happen all over again. My mother-in-law doesn't see any harm in treating her children like absolute shit one moment, and then acting like nothing has happened the next. Even if my mother-in-law is clearly in the wrong, she will never admit it, and she will never be the one to apologise for anything.

• After 18 months of this, my wife is becoming quite depress and just wants her mother back, and she's willing to do almost anything to make that happen (except pay the money, which we don't even have anymore). She wants to apologise to her, make it up to her somehow. But I say it's not down to us. We haven't done anything wrong. It's now down to the mother to try and smooth things over with us. I fear that if we try and make things right, things will be fine for a little while, but then the same thing is going to happen all over again. I want my mother-in-law to own up to acting horrible, see the error in her ways, and try to change her personality and be a better person. She hasn't spoken to one daughter for three years over a stupid little tattoo (and it is little - about a inch long on her ankle), and won't speak to another because (I think) I left the pre-school. Of course I want everyone to have a good relationship, but I can't see that happening without my mother-in-law wanting to change, and accepting that her behaviour is... unacceptable.

• My wife and I are on the verge of having children, and of course, she wants them to have their grandmother in their lives. But I don't want her in their lives if she's just going to treat them like she's treated her own children. I don't want to put my children through the same pain that I see my wife in. But at the same time, I don't want to be the bad guy, by stopping my wife and children from seeing grandma.

Okay, I'll stop there. Again, my apologies for such a long post, but I really need some advice. I hate seeing my wife so upset by this, but I just don't know what to do.

AIBU and WWYD??

I understand your feelings but I think the only thing you can do is support & love your wife, and let her choose the nature of her relationship with her own mother. You don’t have to have a relationship with your MIL but you can’t stop your wife if she wants to build bridges.

Your MIL has no doubt behaved this way all through her children's lives, manipulating and conditioning them to do what she wants by putting huge fear and pressure on them. She makes them earn her love, approval and support by making them jump through increasingly unreasonable hoops. She likes to feel she has control over everybody and every situation.
Your wife has nothing to apologise for her feels sad and guilty, her mother gas done a right number on her. She is emotionally abusive and it would be great if you could help and support your wife to see this. Her mother has a lot to apologise for.
I can imagine she would be an absolute nightmare when you have children - manipulating, controlling and trying to call the shots. I think it is a natural progression of the relationship now to just end it completely. She is the common denominator in all the fallings-out with her own children. All because they haven't danced to her time. She's going to end up a very sad and lonely old woman.

Thanks for the reply. But what would you say about our eventual children? I certainly don't want such a bad presence in their lives.

Apologies for the typos, I hope you still get the gist.

She is completely toxic and who could blame you for not wanting her around your children. Do you think she deserves to have a relationship with them?
If your children ever do question whether they have grandparents you just explain in an age-appropriate way that you don't see granny because she was unkind. Families come in all shapes and sizes and children won't know any different. That won't even be relevant for many years yet any way so I really wouldn't worry about it now to be honest.

There's no way she can claim the rent. Step father is the landlord, not her.

@Ohtherewearethen - Yes, I agree, and this is largely what I've said to my wife. But I think she gets so upset when she thinks of her mother as a "sad, lonely old woman". I've had dinner with my mother-in-law's oldest school friend a few times, and she's shocked and disappointed at the woman my mother-in-law has become. It's like, everyone that knows her knows that when she is nice, she really is a great person to be around - she's fun, and funny, and can be kind and considerate. But when she takes against something, she's terrible. I think all her children have a hard time in letting go of the kinder side of her. And I would include myself in that - it's not easy for me to say that we should cut off contact, but although I know it hurts now, I just feel we're saving ourselves a lot of pain in the future.

I think my wife feels it's her responsibility to "save" her mother - to try and redeem her character in some way. But I view it as the same in dealing with an alcoholic - you can only help them so much until they admit themselves that they have a problem.

You should encourage your wife to get some counseling before ye start a family.
My own childhood issues were magnified when I had my own.
MIL could have short visits with the children without doing any harm. It’s your wife who I would be most worried about.

Only your wife can decide what she wants her relationship with her mother to be. You can’t decide that for her, just support her in whatever decision she makes. You both get equal say in the relationship your children have with their granny, many people who are rubbish parents become very good grandparents because the dynamic is different.

I completely understand your worries about your future children being around such a toxic woman. My DF behaves rather like your MIL: he's never wrong, never apologises, and if I call him out on anything he will stop talking to me. My parents were playing a game with then 4 year old DS once: I heard DF saying something to him in a horrible, goady/sarcastic tone and when DS shouted, my DM stepped in and backed up my DF: it was like a flashback to my childhood and I could have picked them both up and flung them out of the house. When I tried to calmly talk to them they acted like I was crazy, picking on what they declared was a joke. I am VERY aware of what they say to DC now: I'm lucky in that they never want to care for the DC on their own - they always come here. When I was younger my DM used to make me apologise to him - even though he was in the wrong - but now I realise what is happening, I won't. DM is rather manipulative too: the last time DF did something I didn't agree with, I said so, got the silent treatment, and DM was trying to get me to say sorry to him for upsetting him (!) When I refused she got all martyr-ish: 'it's me who suffers, don't you realise you're hurting me too', etc. My DF is very old now and has never changed - he never will, because he always gets away with it. He isn't remotely bothered or affected by his own toxic behaviour, as DM still fusses around and makes excuses for him, and eventually after not talking to me he will just pretend it never happened: and if I try and say 'hang on, you were out of order, I don't want to brush it under the carpet' (last time involved then 5 year old DS getting hurt) then DM jumps in and backs him up - and I'm the trouble maker for not letting it drop.

@Alsohuman Well, of course, if my wife is absolutely intent on continuing her relationship with her mother, there's nothing I can really do to stop her. I want her to be happy, and to have a healthy relationship, but I can't see that happening right now with the way her mother acts, and I just can't be supportive of it. It would be like if my (hypothetical) sister was in a physically abusive relationship with her (hypothetical) husband. She may still love him, and want to be with him, but the relationship is doing her more damage than good. How could I support such a thing?

@Piffle11 So... do you feel like it's better that your children don't see their grandfather? Or is there some value somewhere?

I also feel that, if we haven't spoken to my mother-in-law by the time we have children, it will be weird to suddenly pop back into each other's lives, and just sort of ignore all that's gone on beforehand. At some point, all this is going to have to be addressed.

It's difficult because we're still close with my wife's step-father (who still lives with my mother-in-law). But she's alienated pretty much everybody except for him, and her middle son. In fact, her son has never been the subject of any aggro, it's only been her two daughters. I wonder if there's anything in that.

Sorry but it’s nothing like supporting a hypothetical sister in staying with someone who abused her. When you marry someone you have their back, you don’t withdraw your support because you don’t agree with them, you make it plain that you disagree but you’re on their side. You certainly don’t try to control their relationships with other people.

someone will be along soon with links to resources that you both should be reading, all about getting out of the FOG and toxic parents, and some counseling might benefit your wife and also yourself, so you did live with them for a long while ...
here is one they link to often... start reading, you might see some patterns of behavior you recognise
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3123281-But-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-survivors-of-dysfunctional-and-toxic-families

OP, I thought I wanted my DC to be close with my parents, as I didn't have GPs when I was young. Bizarrely I never questioned my DF's narcissistic tendencies or my DM's martyr/manipulator ways until I actually had DC: then it hit me like a tidal wave. All this stuff, and me thinking, omg I would never do/say that to a child. If/when you have DC you will soon get an idea of what is acceptable around your DC: there is someone on DH's side (MIL's DH, not my DH's DF) who we no longer have any meaningful contact with, as his attitude towards our DC is so poor that we refuse to put up with it. My DC are not negatively affected at all: I guess you don't miss what you never had. There are plenty of people in DC's lives that bring love, support and enrich their lives. My DS is actually relieved that he no longer has to see MIL's DH: he sees my DPs about once every 5 weeks or so, for a few hours. It's always done at my house and I make sure that DS is aware that if anything makes him sad or angry he can tell me. I also tell my DM that if they don't like the 'attitude' we have, then they are free to stay away.

It's very hard, but all you can do is make clear to your wife what your opinion of her mother's behaviour is. Then tell her that given how her mother treats her if she still wants to maintain a relationship with her, you will not put obstacles in her way nor make it difficult for her to see her. But also, that you will not hold back your opinions (expressed calmly, of course) nor offer your wife sympathy when (not if) the shit hits the fan again.

But also tell her that you have the right to NOT have a relationship with her mother. How that works will be your decision. You can't forbid her the house since it's also your wife's home, but you can tell your wife that you will absent yourself if her mother is there, you will not go visit her, and you will not attend any functions at which she is present.

As far as children, tell your wife that children will have to be put on the back burner until the two of you can reach a compromise about how the relationship (if any) between them and their grandmother will proceed.

I think that when your children do come along, it will probably make you and your wife reassess so many parts of your own lives/families/childhoods and those dynamics will shift hugely.

I had quite a dysfunctional childhood and when the DC arrived and began to grow it hit me that I'd unconsciously started to remove parts of my own life from their childhoods; so things that others might have gone "it never did me any harm" I refused to tolerate. My allowances for others behaviours altered, as did my willingness to accept bad behaviours from adults around us; either you held yourself to a high standard or you wouldn't be spending time around my DC. That might sound a little dramatic, and I didn't cut people out and remove myself from anyone who'd ever been a dick in their life. But it did make me a little more robust.

If you decide once your DC are here that you're willing to allow MIL into their lives, it can be entirely on your own terms. It never has to be on hers, you never have to keep her happy and you never have to dance to her tune. She might tantrum and make a drama, she might be the most wonderful Grandmother on earth. Either way those eventual DC will be your focus, and relationships with narcissistic parents often die a death of their own once you become parents, purely because you have no time or energy to continue dancing to their tune. And that's never a bad thing.

You do not have to support her decision. If she chooses to be a doormat for her mother then so be it. She really should get counselling to help open her eyes to the way her mother treats her. She will never have a loving relationship with her mother as clearly her mother is incapable of it. So while she panders to her mother's manipulative ways, you can stand back and let her at it, but you certainly don't have to listen to your wife whinging when it all goes wrong again. Explain to your wife that you love her but you have to make a stand and that you are not going to invite your mil back into your own life.

Thanks for the replies. I agree that counselling for my wife is probably a good idea.

I would like to clarify something from my original post - although my wife and I haven't spoken to her mother in 18 months, it's not because I cut off the contact, and in that time, I haven't tried to control my wife and stopped her from seeing her mother. We haven't spoken because my mother-in-law refused to speak to us, and so we stopped making an effort. My wife agrees with me that she (my mother-in-law) needs to change before things can go forward, but she also feels that it's her responsibility to help her to change.

I don't want to write my mother-in-law off entirely. I suppose I love her too - there was a time when we were very close, and, as I'm not particularly close to my own mother, she was more an actual mother to me than a mother-in-law. But I can't keep going in circles, and I hate how upset my wife gets. I do want everyone to have a good relationship, and I would love for her to be a part of my eventual children's live - but not how she is now. The only way I can see any of us moving forward is if my mother-in-law owns up to her past actions, and makes an effort to change. But I have no faith that she will ever do this.

She sounds just like my mother a raging narcissist. Your wife can get councilling specifically for this. Cut her out now because it will only get worse

Counselling for your wife is a good idea. If you decide on children you can limit the time spent with MIL, especially if you move away from the area.

I’d even have second thoughts on this relationship if your wife continues to want to be around toxic people. Like you say, the children will be affected.

Tell your wife in a nice way to open her eyes!! She’s not a sad lonely woman. She’s mean, spiteful abd most certainly has a mental health issue. Your wife should go to a counsellor to get their opinion on her mother. They’d be horrified I’m sure. It might give her some perspective though.

Hi op,
I feel for you,caught up in this situation.
You have been remarkably restrained and polite to a woman who is so spiteful.
Tbh,I would not want this woman in my child's life.she will play the same games with them and start to mess them up,they will end up feeling as your wife does,worthless and craving her love and attention.
They are innocent people need your protection.Go right ahead with no contact and tell her why if you feel the need.good luck

But at the same time, I don't want to be the bad guy, by stopping my wife and children from seeing grandma.

You have no authority to stop your wife seeing her family, and taking her children with her.

Absolutely PlainSpeaking, it works both ways. OP's are also told that they cannot stop DH from taking children around to toxic MIL.